Typing Indicator/Quacker Trial Feedback Thread

[LasharaDyran]

I don’t think they should indicate tells at all, or OOC chat in DM channels. If someone isn’t saying something you’d hear you shouldn’t see them “talking”

I don’t even think they should show if someone is whispering but that seems more negotiable.

I agree with this. I am a bit torn on the whisper part, if it prevents people from walking out of whisper range while I am mid-post.

Dreams wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2024 9:57 am
Are the dots included in WYSIWYG in the sense that it’s IC information that a character is talking?

I do not think they can be for so long as the dots also work for any typing, including emotes, tells, DM chat, entering commands, etc. I would hate for someone to believe me to be talking when I am doing -date or -save.

But as one of the slower typists on this server, who frequently has characters walk away while I am mid-typing, I am wholeheartedly in favour of the change. I do wonder if the indicator could be a bit less obstructive though. It is seeming large.

[Biggrouse]

I quite enjoy this feature and I am happy it's being tried out. Most of my thoughts align with D4wN's post. Maybe make them a bit smaller like others have suggested.

When my character is out to do something, I, as a player, sometimes have trouble sitting still. It's great to know if a passerby is trying to engage you, that a conversation hasn't died down, or that you should slow down because a writworking partner is trying to RP more. In situations like these, I am happy to wait and accomodate.

For me the quackers would be pretty airtight and strictly a good thing if there was a way to exclude messages that start with a - or /. That would cover tells, commands, and whispers, which are better off without indicators in my opinion. Even if this proved impossible for some reason, I'd probably still play with them on most the time, as I feel the benefits outweigh the fringe downsides.

I can easily understand why others would be more comfortable without them, and the indicators should always fall to player choice. There are valid reasons to dislike it. The predictions that it will cause massive changes in server culture or player interaction dynamics are a bit harder for me to understand though.

Overall, I hope that it stays, and thanks to the developers who made this come to pass.

[Rubricae]

this is a net positive feature

quack

[Greg Wilson]

Eopei's player here!

I was enjoying the quackers at a language lesson. I did not enjoy the quackers for smaller scale, like around four players. It turned into everyone taking turns. I also hit enter by accident a few times and disrupted the flow of the conversation. I think they are interrupting the flow of conversation more than helping! Good idea just doesn't seem to help the flow of conversation, if anything it hurts it.

[Dreams]

Are the dots included in WYSIWYG in the sense that it’s IC information that a character is talking?

Hell no.

The dots are OOC. it could also be someone typing a Tell or a in the DM channel. Also maybe they're just cooking an elaborate emote with no intention to post it unless XYZ happens.

I hope they’re taken as OOC but WYSIWYG applies in almost every other situation. Maybe we can add a /brb or /afk command so that floaty VFX text appears over your characters head to let everyone know you’re away for a bit.

[Kythana]

Why would the bubbles count as WYSIWYG? It already doesn't apply for other UI aspects like floating nametags.

https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Rules#What_ ... WYSIWYG.29

WYSIWYG does not apply to nameplates such as character names or fixture tags to assert mechanical ownership such as Chair{DM Vivec}. You can not know the chair belongs to {DM Vivec} because of the tag.

[Dreams]

I really wish these would stop changing my preference to enabling quackers. Having to turn them off every update.

[Hoodoo]

I really wish these would stop changing my preference to enabling quackers. Having to turn them off every update.

This patch was aimed to make sure it's more consistent so you don't have to fiddle about with the settings as much.
Sorry about that, If it happens again, let me know.

[WitchyEvil]

I have opted out, I will not be opting in.

The PvP Concerns have been noted by others, so I won't touch on those again.

I do have concerns with whispers. Often times someone will be in stealth and whispering with my character. No one else knows they are in the area, but with the Typing Indicator ON, they would see my indicator flicker to suggest I'm engaged in conversation, this seems like it would be a death for sneaky RP.

While I am not going to use the system, I would suggest if the system is going to remain it have the option to disable for the various chat channels.

[Hoodoo]

Just wanted to put here that now that I've updated the server that we have the ability to disable the typing indicator for tells. I thought I packaged it with the update but there was a minor mishap, it'll be in within the day if all goes well.

Thank you for the feedback, we're reading all of it.

[Machado]

I am glad that the devs are still bringing new ideas to keep the server fresh and improving.

However I think this update is trying to fix something that was not broken. I can't stop wondering why so much effort is invested in something no one was asking for when there are major issues yet to be addressed, like the summons update or the need of balance between martials/loremasters and full dedicated casters.

This update is calling even more division among the players. We don't need the "quack team" and the "non-quack team". In this matter, things should stay like was before.

But again, I really appreciate the motivation and effort to try make things always better. You are doing an amazing job, but no one can always hit the mark.

[Kythana]

However I think this update is trying to fix something that was not broken. I can't stop wondering why so much effort is invested in something no one was asking for when...

Speak for yourself, I've been wanting this feature for a long time now, and am very happy to see it.

...there are major issues yet to be addressed, like the summons update or the need of balance between martials/loremasters and full dedicated casters.

Not all devs work on the same area. Not all areas are their jurisdiction and likely require oversight of someone above. Not all devs have the interest.

[good man of god]

Seems the quackers are now clipping into character's heads rather than floating neatly above them, after the size update.

OG quackers didn't do this.

Could it be something to do with them now not matching the various height parameters each character has?

[good man of god]

I am glad that the devs are still bringing new ideas to keep the server fresh and improving.

However I think this update is trying to fix something that was not broken. I can't stop wondering why so much effort is invested in something no one was asking for when there are major issues yet to be addressed, like the summons update or the need of balance between martials/loremasters and full dedicated casters.

This update is calling even more division among the players. We don't need the "quack team" and the "non-quack team". In this matter, things should stay like was before.

But again, I really appreciate the motivation and effort to try make things always better. You are doing an amazing job, but no one can always hit the mark.

+1 on this

[Irongron]

I am glad that the devs are still bringing new ideas to keep the server fresh and improving.

However I think this update is trying to fix something that was not broken. I can't stop wondering why so much effort is invested in something no one was asking for when there are major issues yet to be addressed, like the summons update or the need of balance between martials/loremasters and full dedicated casters.

This update is calling even more division among the players. We don't need the "quack team" and the "non-quack team". In this matter, things should stay like was before.

But again, I really appreciate the motivation and effort to try make things always better. You are doing an amazing job, but no one can always hit the mark.

While I definitely agree with all those other things being more important, I have to point out that these are different developers. The issues you raised are all mechanics/balance adjustments, and not coding/feature projects.

We have around 50 volunteers running and updating Arelith, and it is only a very small part of those that work on class mechanics. Summons, for instance are being looked at by someone else entirely I understand. Work on quackers had no impact at all on that project; different developers often work in very different areas.

As for this new feature? It's a real QoL for those, who for whatever reason (young, old, second language, social anxiety/trouble picking words, dyslexic) are slow to type, and I know could be made to feel uncomfortable by the speed at which things move around them. As I see it the benefit it grants to those people far outweighs the inconvenience to those that don't need/want It.

[Ascended Mage]

Thank you for bringing this finally to Arelith. This thing working great on other servers and I am sure here it will work great as well.

Also...

...if someone has quacking visible and is speaking to someone in stealth...

I don't like the idea that I might be standing around the corner whispering to someone (especially if that person is in stealth) and people using that to metagame.

Often times someone will be in stealth and whispering with my character.

Though it is feedback about quacking, this 'stealth talking' is abusing game mechanics. Walk to someone while others not around. Press Hide with 100 skills in hide and start talk with person while invisible to everyone but not to one character. I don't understand how few thinks it is a norm thing to do or practice a lot.

But let's keep it about quacking, sorry.

Which leads to... That it is more healthy to see quackers when people DO whispers if they so lazy to emote that they 'whispering'. As a average arelith player I think it is better to see people do emoting that they whispering or at least seeing quacks than just see how they silently stare to wall or something else.

[Cutieriot]

So far its a great way to know/indicator as to whether someone is afk or typing for me. Not overly fond of the animation itself.

Only issues I have is it works while:

Works when sending tells

Whispering

typing out commands - commands

(Gives the impression you're about to say something when in reality you're not)

I'm by no means experienced in how it all works. So if this isn't changeable fair enough.

[Machado]

I am glad that the devs are still bringing new ideas to keep the server fresh and improving.

However I think this update is trying to fix something that was not broken. I can't stop wondering why so much effort is invested in something no one was asking for when there are major issues yet to be addressed, like the summons update or the need of balance between martials/loremasters and full dedicated casters.

This update is calling even more division among the players. We don't need the "quack team" and the "non-quack team". In this matter, things should stay like was before.

But again, I really appreciate the motivation and effort to try make things always better. You are doing an amazing job, but no one can always hit the mark.

While I definitely agree with all those other things being more important, I have to point out that these are different developers. The issues you raised are all mechanics/balance adjustments, and not coding/feature projects.

We have around 50 volunteers running and updating Arelith, and it is only a very small part of those that work on class mechanics. Summons, for instance are being looked at by someone else entirely I understand. Work on quackers had no impact at all on that project; different developers often work in very different areas.

As for this new feature? It's a real QoL for those, who for whatever reason (young, old, second language, social anxiety/trouble picking words, dyslexic) are slow to type, and I know could be made to feel uncomfortable by the speed at which things move around them. As I see it the benefit it grants to those people far outweighs the inconvenience to those that don't need/want It.

Thanks for the reply, man.
Really helpful.

I know that those 50 awesome volunteers are not closed in one room doing just one thing at time. However, every new change takes times to adjust and get used to it. No matter if it is mechanics, balance or feature. Even though the devs works separately, each new change affects the server (and players) as a whole. I meant that this kind of update, implemented ahead the biggest issues that needs to be addressed, can create new problems even before the paramount ones got solved.

Amazing as this quacker thing can be (for some), I think that should be put in a queue, after the balance/summons update being implemented, because no matter how incredible will be the work on those subjects, people will still be divided about it.
Personal thought, I rather be divided for something that is really meaningful than for just a QoL feature for some people.

Speaking as a not that smart person and non-native english speaker, I never faced a problem interacting with anyone on the server. Even when taking my time to reply or typos here and there, never had a dialogue interrupted for lacking of patience or understanding.

So, personally, I did not like this feature. Not only because I believe it is not really necessary, but mostly because is already causing one more division among the players, and it is not worth enough.

[chris a gogo]

Didn't like it i can see why some would and that's fine but i won't be using it.
Not logged on yet today but after i turned it all off i got a message saying others can still see when I'm typing despite me turning it off is that correct?

[D4wN]

Thank you for bringing this finally to Arelith. This thing working great on other servers and I am sure here it will work great as well.

Also...

...if someone has quacking visible and is speaking to someone in stealth...

I don't like the idea that I might be standing around the corner whispering to someone (especially if that person is in stealth) and people using that to metagame.

Often times someone will be in stealth and whispering with my character.

Though it is feedback about quacking, this 'stealth talking' is abusing game mechanics. Walk to someone while others not around. Press Hide with 100 skills in hide and start talk with person while invisible to everyone but not to one character. I don't understand how few thinks it is a norm thing to do or practice a lot.

But let's keep it about quacking, sorry.

Which leads to... That it is more healthy to see quackers when people DO whispers if they so lazy to emote that they 'whispering'. As a average arelith player I think it is better to see people do emoting that they whispering or at least seeing quacks than just see how they silently stare to wall or something else.

Maybe I'm just tired but I have no idea what you said. If I am talking around a corner with someone in stealth, away from direct LoS, people shouldn't know I am whispering to someone in stealth because of the 3 dots floating above my head.

[Cthuletta]

I personally enjoy the use of Quackers and have found them really helpful on other games prior to Arelith. As someone who tends to both type fast and remember a point I wanted my character to make after already hitting 'enter', I tend to multi-post in several short sentences or paragraphs as a result which annoys... well, a lot of people. (I'm so sorry, I dunno why my brain is like that either ) Seeing the other person responding to what's already 'out' helps me slow down and be more patient so the other person I'm speaking with has a minute to formulate their own response before I heap more information onto their plate which is inevitably delaying their own reply.

There are some things I also find concerning that could be improved to truly streamline the feature in the spirit of RP.
Someone mentioned that the programming should not immediately trigger upon hitting enter, to give a moment to detect a '-' or a '/' and temporarily disable it from there, which is a good idea. Quackers aren't needed for doing commands, I don't see them as needed to indicate when you're also turning it off for whatever reason. I don't agree with quackers being used while whispering, since whispering is generally done to AVOID attention being brought to your conversation. While one shouldn't be metagaming seeing three dots above your head, the players still SEE it and know what's occuring on an OOC level. I speak purely for myself with this one, but if I know something is happening on an OOC level, I become curious about it. I might not engage or try to find out because of course I don't want to metagame... however that doesn't stop the innate curiousity of 'Waaas goin' on here :3' happening in my thought process. I'm sure I'm not the only one with that kind of thinking either! Humans are curious by nature.

The Quackers showing up for tells being an optional feature is good, though I do recommend that one as being turned off from the start with the option to turn it on... given I can't really picture a scenerio where someone would want that on to begin with. Minor thing there.

[The Moon]

-snip-

Though it is feedback about quacking, this 'stealth talking' is abusing game mechanics. Walk to someone while others not around. Press Hide with 100 skills in hide and start talk with person while invisible to everyone but not to one character. I don't understand how few thinks it is a norm thing to do or practice a lot.

But let's keep it about quacking, sorry.

Which leads to... That it is more healthy to see quackers when people DO whispers if they so lazy to emote that they 'whispering'. As a average arelith player I think it is better to see people do emoting that they whispering or at least seeing quacks than just see how they silently stare to wall or something else.

Maybe I'm just tired but I have no idea what you said. If I am talking around a corner with someone in stealth, away from direct LoS, people shouldn't know I am whispering to someone in stealth because of the 3 dots floating above my head.

They're saying it's a metagaming issue, not a quacking issue. But I disagree. The potential metagaming issue stems from quacking, and I personally think that if quacking stays in then there should be an exemption of indicators for whispering to avoid the temptation of meta entirely.

Small Edit: To expand on "just report it", I don't think there's any reliable way anyone can say with certainty that someone's motivations were because of the quacking indicators. This is why earlier in the thread, I was asking if DMs would be checking if they had quacking on or off, and if that would be a consideration in reports.

[Eyeliner]

I don't think it's abuse of mechanics to talk in stealth at all... creating a "who said that?" moment seems like valid RP to me.

But even more that that, I'd love to be able to use quackers to throw my voice like a ventriloquist and seem to be talking from a spot where I'm not standing.

[The Moon]

I don't think it's abuse of mechanics to talk in stealth at all... creating a "who said that?" moment seems like valid RP to me.

But even more that that, I'd love to be able to use quackers to throw my voice like a ventriloquist and seem to be talking from a spot where I'm not standing.

That's... not what's being said.

The concern is Person A is in stealth/invis. Person B, who is fully visible, is talking to Person A. If Person B is using Quackers, people will know that they are typing. Person C who is not involved in the interaction might be able to OOCly discern that someone is there.

Using Quackers OOCly to assume that someone is there is not valid. My point is more that it would be difficult to report because there's no way to prove intent playerside, and it would add work for the DM team (assuming that they're able to tell who in the interaction has Quackers on or not).

(But I do agree it would be nice to have Quackers appear on things like Illusion Clones, Henchmen, and Familiars. But maybe not ventriloquist style, since that would just be encouraging people to use Quackers in an OOC detection way.)

[Xarge VI]

I like it that there are options how to use the indicators.

I like seeing them on slower writers so I know to hold on. But I don't like to show them myself, because strangely enough they slow down the rp.

I have grown to be quite a fast writer during my time here, so I tend to write descriptive emotes while I wait for the other one to write their response- or mid walking. I noticed that the conversation partner tends to halt writing/walking when they see the quackers. It's a very polite thing to do but it halts the progress.