Timer on Roll

[Dreams]

I guess my point is that if there was an incentive to roll award characters, more people would. There isn’t one right now.

The staff have also said this is as good as we’re going to get until better ideas come up. So, what makes it better? We probably want something that is close to the current system with minor tweaks. Can you see where those would happen?

We currently have a never ending influx of greater and major characters, with each player getting 6 attempts per year for the option of playing one. That can’t really be solved unless award characters are being deleted as well.

What if players can’t have more than 1 tier of award character active? e.g. You have a rakshasa? Can’t make other Major characters, but can make other award tier alts. Deleting the one you have opens up being able to make another.

[Peacewhisper]

I can understand people's frustration with having rolled many characters and only ever getting Normal rewards. For a long time this was the case with myself. Then, determined to earn a Major, I made another character, made over a million gold, and I was lucky enough to get it when I deleted that character at level 30. The next character I rolled, guess what? I got another Major that I'm currently sitting on, hoping some better reward options will be added before I spend it. My point is, don't get frustrated and give up, and also that having a million gold will double your odds of getting that Major.

I think it's for the best we keep the rewards system automated though and keep Major rewards rare. Much as I like my winged elf, it would be pretty silly if Myon suddenly became 75% winged elves because now we could app for it or because major rewards became much easier to get. The timer isn't that bad, it takes about a month to level up a character even if you know the server well, if you're going through characters in less than two months it might be good to take a step back and reevaluate your priorities. A month of grinding and a month of RP to finish your story arc seems pretty reasonable to me. And if you are lucky enough to get a greater or major then waiting a month longer shouldn't be that big of a deal since now you get the opportunity to play a special race.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Much as I like my winged elf, it would be pretty silly if Myon suddenly became 75% winged elves because now we could app for it

I don't really have a stake in the roll timer, I don't play enough where it has ever affected me since it was put in. But I just wanted to correct this bit, since switching over to an app process would actually make it MUCH easier to control the rarity. "We currently have five Avariel and we are closing down applications for this race until one moves on". Having them as an app character also makes it easier to shuffle along someone not playing them anymore instead of it just sitting in their vault until something that might interest them with that character comes up.

Now there are plenty of reasons given why the application process wouldn't work. Players don't like apps. DMs don't want the work. I would be curious if they still apply after the court nobles were all app characters, because personally I think that went swimmingly. I gave a lot of specific shout outs in my kudos thread, but the truth is in general the court nobles were some of the most interesting characters I have met on Arelith in six years, and I think having to flesh out a concept for an app played a huge role in that reality. But even if it's still the same answers, "too much work" and "I hate writing apps", neither of them has to do with rarity control. The application process is the only surefire way to make sure said control even exists.

[Eyeliner]

I'd prefer something like losing the Major Award tier completely and making certain races require a Greater and an application, and there's a limit on how many could be created in a time frame. And also, limit how many special races a player could apply for, like you get one a year at most.

Establish limits but lose most of the requirement of lucky rolls so everyone can have a reasonable chance, with limits on how many special characters they could make.

[Kythana]

What if players can’t have more than 1 tier of award character active? e.g. You have a rakshasa? Can’t make other Major characters, but can make other award tier alts. Deleting the one you have opens up being able to make another.

This is really the only incentive that will ever work, I agree. As new races/awards are introduced or shifted around in tiers, players would naturally delete legacy old vault characters to play the new FOTM. Until then, major awards just stockpile in your vault, unless you're one of the few that roll them.

And, just no on applications. They don't work, and any sort of population control just serves to benefit forever characters. There is a reason they are widely reviled by the playerbase, and it isn't just about the chore in writing them.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

And, just no on applications. They don't work, and any sort of population control just serves to benefit forever characters. There is a reason they are widely reviled by the playerbase, and it isn't just about the chore in writing them.

Can you elaborate on what you mean here? I'm just curious because after 20 years I generally understand just about every nwn perspective, even the ones I completely disagree with, but I'm at a loss here. How does it benefit forever characters, and what makes it so "reviled" beyond the "chore" of writing them?

[The GrumpyCat]

And, just no on applications. They don't work, and any sort of population control just serves to benefit forever characters. There is a reason they are widely reviled by the playerbase, and it isn't just about the chore in writing them.

Can you elaborate on what you mean here? I'm just curious because after 20 years I generally understand just about every nwn perspective, even the ones I completely disagree with, but I'm at a loss here. How does it benefit forever characters, and what makes it so "reviled" beyond the "chore" of writing them?

I think I get some of (though not all) of the argument here.

To break down
1) Applications don't exist for population controle. The hard limits (in terms of Vamps Rakshasa) exist for that. Applications exist in to ensure that people at the very least understand what they're playing, and hopefully play it in an interesting way.
2) The argument for 'forever characters' can be that with all the effort of putting in an application, and getting it approved, people are less willing to delete and go through the process again. This perhaps holds some water? But frankly - at least as far as awards are concerned, I'm unconvinced it holds much.
3) I get that it's stressful and not fun to write an application, truthfully I can think of more fun things to do with my time than go through them, and certainly more fun things to do than denying them. But they're neccesary as for the above reason - to try and make sure people understand the concept they're playing, the lore of the concept and the pitfalls of said concept. I feel, in some places, they are neccesary and they arn't going away.

[perseid]

The system in the Old Days was designed to do two things essentially
1) Let people play some special concepts, whilst keeping them rare.
2) Encourage a turnover of very long term characters.

Now mark you, this was back in the day when it took the vast majority of characters up to nine months to get to level 30, so it really was an 'epic sacrifice'. Not 'Oh I'll grind this guy up to 26 in a couple of weeks of play then delete' but more

'This is a character who I've spent almost a year with, roleplaying, getting to know people, building up, leveling... now I must say goodbye to him forever.'

It was a way of encouraging movement of long term pc.

Sadly because it was based off leveling, and the fact we've got a much, much, much faster leveling system that is no longer the case.

And yes, I'm not so fond of the RNG aspect of it either.

The system has needed an overhall for a long, long time now. I hope it happens.

Why not tie it to some other metric then like a character's logged-in lifespan? That way people can't just have a farm of alts waiting to age and the mechanic would better align with the original intent of primarily being something to encourage turnover of longterm characters?

[Peacewhisper]

I hate the population limits on certain awards. Take vampire for example. I've seen and heard of one vampire across multiple characters and years of playing. What are the other 10-12 of them doing? Why does nobody know their names? Will they ever roll? If one of them ever does, there's 10 more in queue ahead of you, so realistically, nobody is ever going to get to play this award, in the grand scheme of things.

I'd much rather just slap a mandatory MoD on certain races and restrict them from using portals, attunement potions, or lenses entirely. Force them to stand their ground and fight and give them limited lives, and we might see more people get the chance to play them and might see some of them actually do good RP. There needs to be some sort of turnover happening if we're going to set such a low population limit on an award race.

Probably needs to be some kind of time limit too so people don't just shelve them and sit on them forever.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

And, just no on applications. They don't work, and any sort of population control just serves to benefit forever characters. There is a reason they are widely reviled by the playerbase, and it isn't just about the chore in writing them.

Can you elaborate on what you mean here? I'm just curious because after 20 years I generally understand just about every nwn perspective, even the ones I completely disagree with, but I'm at a loss here. How does it benefit forever characters, and what makes it so "reviled" beyond the "chore" of writing them?

I think I get some of (though not all) of the argument here.

To break down
1) Applications don't exist for population controle. The hard limits (in terms of Vamps Rakshasa) exist for that. Applications exist in to ensure that people at the very least understand what they're playing, and hopefully play it in an interesting way.
2) The argument for 'forever characters' can be that with all the effort of putting in an application, and getting it approved, people are less willing to delete and go through the process again. This perhaps holds some water? But frankly - at least as far as awards are concerned, I'm unconvinced it holds much.
3) I get that it's stressful and not fun to write an application, truthfully I can think of more fun things to do with my time than go through them, and certainly more fun things to do than denying them. But they're neccesary as for the above reason - to try and make sure people understand the concept they're playing, the lore of the concept and the pitfalls of said concept. I feel, in some places, they are neccesary and they arn't going away.

This is the more expected argument against apps, and I thought based on their word choices they were going to give me some new perspective I never thought about.

I did want to talk about 3 a little though. I don't think it's the writing that is stressful, at least it's certainly not for me. I am just writing down what I am going to come up with for every character regardless of whether or not I app, because I think having a background story and some goals in mind play a huge role in creating a character instead of an avatar. And by goals, I mean just some ideas to get started on. I will abandon them in a heartbeat if the game takes me in another direction that seems more fun and still makes sense for the general concept, app or no.

But what is stressful to me at least is the idea of people judging something I wrote in a conversation I am not part of. Pride is my personality type's biggest flaw after all, but I put it aside for what's best for the game. I liken it to going to the dentist. Everyone hates it, but the smart people go every six months anyways because the idea of their teeth rotting out down the line is a far less desirable outcome.

As for your dislike for reading them, that only matters if it's true of the entire team, which may be the case. My perspective on this is rooted in my time dming on another server where we had a few dms that loved judging apps, and I mostly just let them handle it unless for some reason that crowd was short on enough votes for approval (4-6 depending on the current size of the team). The thing I was good at was running events in game, and I avoided apps and discipline as much as possible because there were people that were better at that aspect then I ever could be. I stepped up when I had to, but I believe that dms focusing more on what they are good at helps slow down the burn out when it's possible.

And finally, saying no is always tough. Hearing no is always tough. But in this instance, good feedback does wonders. Point out what's good first, then point out what needs work. Give them some positive reinforcement to go at it again in the near future. And if they are still mad, well, you did all you can at that point and you can chalk it up to a "them" problem.

Now, I didn't mean to turn this into a debate about apps, I just wanted to correct that one statement above. But on the same token, this-

I'd prefer something like losing the Major Award tier completely and making certain races require a Greater and an application, and there's a limit on how many could be created in a time frame. And also, limit how many special races a player could apply for, like you get one a year at most.

Establish limits but lose most of the requirement of lucky rolls so everyone can have a reasonable chance, with limits on how many special characters they could make.

-is kinda brilliant. It solves so many issues that come around the roll system. No need to grind, you will get enough greater awards eventually to app for whatever you want. The snowflake stuff already has apps tied to some of it, so expanding it won't be painful and will definitely help those races that aren't tied to an app be played better in general. And people playing them won't just be doing it because that's the most powerful option they won in a dice roll, they will be doing it because they have a concept for it.

Does that mean it works for the vision of Arelith? That's for smarter folks then me to figure out. I just think the idea was good enough for some further exploration.

[The GrumpyCat]

As for your dislike for reading them, that only matters if it's true of the entire team, which may be the case. My perspective on this is rooted in my time dming on another server where we had a few dms that loved judging apps, and I mostly just let them handle it unless for some reason that crowd was short on enough votes for approval (4-6 depending on the current size of the team). The thing I was good at was running events in game, and I avoided apps and discipline as much as possible because there were people that were better at that aspect then I ever could be. I stepped up when I had to, but I believe that dms focusing more on what they are good at helps slow down the burn out when it's possible.

You bring up some very good points. And to be clear I don't massivly dislike them, they're just not the most fun part of the job. More fun is to empower players, when I can. Alas, sometimes we have to say, 'No.;

[Spriggan Bride]

I am sure applications are the only times DMs have any indication what many players are really going for with their characters, because if they just know them from occasional observation and being in the crowd at DM events they'll have little idea what their actual goals and concepts are.

So just for that I don't think they're a terrible thing, at least for players asking for a special class or race.