Improve Critical requiring Weapon Focus

[Kenji]

How affected would your character build be if that were the case?

For context, the team is working on the package system and to make the Recommend buttons an actual valid tool for both old and new players alike, making the change above will drastically reduce certain development time.

[Security_Blanket]

A team is working on the recommended button, speaking as an old player I wouldn't before or now use the recommended button. I know you guys are volunteers and you choose to work on what you want to work on, but really, the recommend button? If I had a list of priorities for this server that wouldn't even make the top thousand. I realize that a lot of work would have to go into making that feasible, which further begs the question, why?

As for adding more requirements to feats, I'm not a fan as it forces me to take these feats in specific orders which depending on my build, can hinder it. It's either a benefit or a hindrance and it certainly isn't a benefit.

[Kenji]

So much for dev transparency, I'm keeping some things to myself next time if it always upsets somebody

which further begs the question, why?

• To help with new players in educating them what the "meta" picks are without fudging them over by cross-classing their skill points.
• To help the old players with distributing points into the "must-picks" skills to save some time.
• To help the testers in PGCC building in speeding up the building process.

Recommend button is an overlooked feature because it has been the butt-end of the joke for decades now, but with a little bit of tweaking, it'll be a far more useful tool than one realizes. Don't knock it off 'til you try it.

[TheDoctor]

A team is working on the recommended button, speaking as an old player I wouldn't before or now use the recommended button. I know you guys are volunteers and you choose to work on what you want to work on, but really, the recommend button? If I had a list of priorities for this server that wouldn't even make the top thousand. I realize that a lot of work would have to go into making that feasible, which further begs the question, why?

As for adding more requirements to feats, I'm not a fan as it forces me to take these feats in specific orders which depending on my build, can hinder it. It's either a benefit or a hindrance and it certainly isn't a benefit.

How people decide to spend their free time is none of your concern. You should be thankfull this place even HAS volunteers, let alone a team that has been constantly creating new content and updating this game. Not to mention the difficulty in working with the spaghetti that is nwn code.

As far as adding weap focus as a req to be able to take imp Crit... Go for it! This has allready been done other places and to great effect! Theres a few feats that can be used as a "gate" to unlock other feats that would be in that natural progression.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

How people decide to spend their free time is none of your concern. You should be thankfull this place even HAS volunteers, let alone a team that has been constantly creating new content and updating this game. Not to mention the difficulty in working with the spaghetti that is nwn code.

thanks. i wish more players would speak out against entitlement like this, it's appreciated.

i am actually glad that Kenji is improving the experience for new players. it will help a lot in the long run.

[Coolguy McMagic]

Arelith builds can be very confusing and sometimes rather punishing for new players, so I think an upate to the Recommend functionality would be great.

As for the actual question, I can't think of a single build that would ever take Improved Critical but not Weapon Focus. Likewise there is not a single PrC that has Improved Critical as a prerequisite, so I cannot imagine that such a change would have a noteable downside.

I would actually be impressed if someone could come up with a build in which taking Improved Critical before Weapon Focus was somehow important.

[ReverentBlade]

I tend to take imp crit before wep focus in my builds just because I like having more crits earlier as I'm leveling. Just a preference thing, but I can't think of any builds where I'd only take one or the other.

[Kenji]

I would actually be impressed if someone could come up with a build in which taking Improved Critical before Weapon Focus was somehow important.

The builds I can think of that would be affected by this are very niche:
They take improved critical pre-epic and the dip monk post-epic to avoid a reduction in BAB as well as getting WF: Unarmed for free, and then take EWF Unarmed with the last epic feat.

Certainly not fighter because one likely wants Weapon Specialization which requires WF. Not barbarian due to alignment conflict. Not swashbuckler because they get bonus with finesse weapons. So it’d have to be… rogue base class? Or battle clerics/Shaman

[Dreams]

Does a recommend button require this much thought? -relevel is available for when the player wakes up and realises that they would like some more hands-on control of their character and choices. I'm more worried that a poll like this means that later on Kenji is going to pull out "Improved Critical now requires Weapon Focus!" along with the whatever the hell is happening to weapons that isn't DnD.

[Kenji]

Does a recommend button require this much thought? -relevel is available for when the player wakes up and realises that they would like some more hands-on control of their character and choices.

At some point -relevel will be limited. And the team does not hand out first level redo like candies. Having to remake a character because a new player not knowing to customize packages and get their skill points wasted on cross-class skills is very disheartening. I'm sure it has happened to many of us when we first started out.

If only packages were actually competent in what they do then, huh? Would it have saved the countless new players that may have quit over the failure of such trivial feature?

I'm more worried that a poll like this means that later on Kenji is going to pull out "Improved Critical now requires Weapon Focus!" along with the whatever the hell is happening to weapons that isn't DnD.

[ltlukoziuz]

I would actually be impressed if someone could come up with a build in which taking Improved Critical before Weapon Focus was somehow important.

The builds I can think of that would be affected by this are very niche:
They take improved critical pre-epic and the dip monk post-epic to avoid a reduction in BAB as well as getting WF: Unarmed for free, and then take EWF Unarmed with the last epic feat.

Certainly not fighter because one likely wants Weapon Specialization which requires WF. Not barbarian due to alignment conflict. Not swashbuckler because they get bonus with finesse weapons. So it’d have to be… rogue base class? Or battle clerics/Shaman

I've seen some builds that take fourth fighter level in epics to Disc Dip at the same time they take both WSpec and EWSpec in same level. Example from Build Compendium (which yes, does take WF first level because it has more than enough martial feats): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1821699262

[Kenji]

I would actually be impressed if someone could come up with a build in which taking Improved Critical before Weapon Focus was somehow important.

The builds I can think of that would be affected by this are very niche:
They take improved critical pre-epic and the dip monk post-epic to avoid a reduction in BAB as well as getting WF: Unarmed for free, and then take EWF Unarmed with the last epic feat.

Certainly not fighter because one likely wants Weapon Specialization which requires WF. Not barbarian due to alignment conflict. Not swashbuckler because they get bonus with finesse weapons. So it’d have to be… rogue base class? Or battle clerics/Shaman

I've seen some builds that take fourth fighter level in epics to Disc Dip at the same time they take both WSpec and EWSpec in same level. Example from Build Compendium (which yes, does take WF first level because it has more than enough martial feats): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1821699262

Given the context of Improved Critical needing Weapon Focus and the only class that receives a Weapon Focus for free being Monk, the implication here regarding Fighter is that the build dips both Fighter and Monk post-epic.

With that in mind, one would have to take Monk levels before Fighter levels in order to qualify for Unarmed Weapon Specialization.

Now, in order to also do the WF + EWS combination at Fighter 4, Fighter 1 must be taken at the following levels: 21, 24, or 27. But Monk dip also needs to happen after level 25, so that Monk levels end from 27 to 30 to achieve rank 30 Tumble dump.

This means a loss in one of the following depending on the spread:

• 1 AC from not getting 30 Tumble (Monk 3 from 24-26, then Fighter 4 27-30)
• 1 BAB from pre-epic Monk dip
• 1 Epic feat from taking Improved Critical in Epics after obtaining Monk's free weapon focus in the epics
• 1 pre-epic feat from taking Weapon Focus pre-epic (instead of obtaining it for free from Monk)

Now, Fighter can be the base class instead of Epic dip, but that defeats the purpose of discussion for dipping Fighter at epic with the WS + EWS combo at 21, 24, 27, or 30. Monk can be the base class, but that'd likely change the level investment of monk from 3 to 4, this would mean a cost in both 1 BAB and 1 class level for the dedicate class.

Which is why in the context of the change of Improved Critical requiring Weapon Focus, one would likely not do Fighter levels in the epics if they don't plan on taking weapon focus pre-epic.

[MissEvelyn]

The builds I can think of that would be affected by this are very niche:
They take improved critical pre-epic and the dip monk post-epic to avoid a reduction in BAB as well as getting WF: Unarmed for free, and then take EWF Unarmed with the last epic feat.

Certainly not fighter because one likely wants Weapon Specialization which requires WF. Not barbarian due to alignment conflict. Not swashbuckler because they get bonus with finesse weapons. So it’d have to be… rogue base class? Or battle clerics/Shaman

I've seen some builds that take fourth fighter level in epics to Disc Dip at the same time they take both WSpec and EWSpec in same level. Example from Build Compendium (which yes, does take WF first level because it has more than enough martial feats): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1821699262

Given the context of Improved Critical needing Weapon Focus and the only class that receives a Weapon Focus for free being Monk, the implication here regarding Fighter is that the build dips both Fighter and Monk post-epic.

With that in mind, one would have to take Monk levels before Fighter levels in order to qualify for Unarmed Weapon Specialization.

Now, in order to also do the WF + EWS combination at Fighter 4, Fighter 1 must be taken at the following levels: 21, 24, or 27. But Monk dip also needs to happen after level 25, so that Monk levels end from 27 to 30 to achieve rank 30 Tumble dump.

This means a loss in one of the following depending on the spread:

• 1 AC from not getting 30 Tumble (Monk 3 from 24-26, then Fighter 4 27-30)
• 1 BAB from pre-epic Monk dip
• 1 Epic feat from taking Improved Critical in Epics after obtaining Monk's free weapon focus in the epics
• 1 pre-epic feat from taking Weapon Focus pre-epic (instead of obtaining it for free from Monk)

Now, Fighter can be the base class instead of Epic dip, but that defeats the purpose of discussion for dipping Fighter at epic with the WS + EWS combo at 21, 24, 27, or 30. Monk can be the base class, but that'd likely change the level investment of monk from 3 to 4, this would mean a cost in both 1 BAB and 1 class level for the dedicate class.

Which is why in the context of the change of Improved Critical requiring Weapon Focus, one would likely not do Fighter levels in the epics if they don't plan on taking weapon focus pre-epic.

So what you're saying is, in order to make everyone happy, Improved Critical needs a prerequisite of Weapon Focus OR +21 levels. Would that work with packages?

[Kenji]

So what you're saying is, in order to make everyone happy, Improved Critical needs a prerequisite of Weapon Focus OR +21 levels. Would that work with packages?

Oh, no. It's just that to make it appear as if the Recommend button automatically selects the right weapon-related feats for the player who clicks on the button, in the package system, we put down all of the weapon-related options (Epic Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Epic Weapon Specialization, Overwhelming Critical, and Improved Critical in this case). Players will still have to manually select the right Weapon Focus for their characters. The Recommend button would then select whichever feat is available based on the order of the given list in the package system.

Example Package

Code: Select all

2DA V2.0

FeatIndex Label
0   988   FEAT_EPIC_THUNDERING_RAGE
1   989   FEAT_EPIC_TERRIFYING_RAGE
2   869   FEAT_MIGHTY_RAGE
3   2088  FEAT_EPIC_WEAPON_FOCUS_1HCONCUSSION
4   2089  FEAT_EPIC_WEAPON_FOCUS_1HEDGED
5   2090  FEAT_EPIC_WEAPON_FOCUS_2HANDED
6   2091  FEAT_EPIC_WEAPON_FOCUS_POLEARM
7   2094  FEAT_EPIC_OVERWHELMING_CRITICAL_1HCONCUSSION
8   2095  FEAT_EPIC_OVERWHELMING_CRITICAL_1HEDGED
9   2096  FEAT_EPIC_OVERWHELMING_CRITICAL_2HANDED
10  2097  FEAT_EPIC_OVERWHELMING_CRITICAL_POLEARM
11  2100  FEAT_EPIC_WEAPON_SPECIALIZATION_1HCONCUSSION
12  2101  FEAT_EPIC_WEAPON_SPECIALIZATION_1HEDGED
13  2102  FEAT_EPIC_WEAPON_SPECIALIZATION_2HANDED
14  2103  FEAT_EPIC_WEAPON_SPECIALIZATION_POLEARM
15  2082  FEAT_WEAPON_SPECIALIZATION_1HCONCUSSION
16  2083  FEAT_WEAPON_SPECIALIZATION_1HEDGED
17  2084  FEAT_WEAPON_SPECIALIZATION_2HANDED
18  2085  FEAT_WEAPON_SPECIALIZATION_POLEARM
19  71    FEAT_EPIC_DODGE
20  490   FEAT_EPIC_ARMOR_SKIN
21  584   FEAT_EPIC_PROWESS
22  43    FEAT_EPIC_BLINDING_SPEED
23  2076  FEAT_IMPROVED_CRITICAL_1HCONCUSSION
24  2077  FEAT_IMPROVED_CRITICAL_1HEDGED
25  2078  FEAT_IMPROVED_CRITICAL_2HANDED
26  2079  FEAT_IMPROVED_CRITICAL_POLEARM
27  51    FEAT_EPIC_SKILL_FOCUS_HIDE
28  49    FEAT_EPIC_SKILL_FOCUS_DISCIPLINE
29  10    CripplingStrike
30  11    DefensiveRoll
31  14    ImprovedEvasion
32  389   Expertise
33  413   DivineMight
34  414   DivineShield
35  408   BlindFight
36  390   ImpExpertise
37  23    KnockDown
38  17    ImpKnock
39  28    PowerAttack
40  391   GreatCleave
41  6     Cleave
42  10    Dodge
43  44    WeaponProficiencyExotic
44  24    LightningReflex
45  14    GreatFortitude
46  22    IronWill

As you can see, without the prerequisite, if we put down all the Improved Critical feats (or Weapon Focus feats for that matter), what will happen is the recommend button will recommend taking all the WF and Imp Crit feats before moving on to the next selection of feats beforehand.

Now, technically we can put on a singular Weapon Focus feat before all the pre-epic feats but after the epic feats or WS/Imp Crit, but should a player want to choose any weapon focus other than the one in the front, then the Package will not recommend anything else until that first weapon focus is taken after it has exhausted all the weapon-related feat options from thereon.

The other approach would be to make individual package for each weapon focus types that we have, but that would not only quadruple the workload, but it will also bloat the package system choices on the player side.

The current approach is to make a few basic packages shared among nearly all builds for the first base class taken. And another few default packages specific for when players are multiclassing. This way when players are leveling up different classes (first or 2nd/3rd class slots), their recommend button can help them build their characters by suggesting relevant feats in Arelith as well as distributing skill points without putting down undesirable feats or cross-classing skills.

Players will still have to manually select their Weapon Focus for now.

[AstralUniverse]

u can just put weapon focus above improved critical on the recommended list. I dont see the necessecity to make weapon focus a requirement. It would definitely affect some builds who fit in improved crit early on but only get weapon focus (for free) at later level.