Player Count Conclusions

[30 RANGER FROM THE MOON]

Personally, I would love to see loremaster nerfed in regards to epic spell foci commands. If it required greater spell focus in divination or, hells, even just spell focus as qualifier for secret of scry for example,

I would be happy to see loremaster being pushed more towards "loremaster" rather than "quasi-mage"of sorts. I also think secrets of ab/ac/health should be left as is, because otherwise everyone would just have both scry, ward and artisian (or explorer if sailor) without any decision-making needed

im trimming the fat here to point fingers at my previous points and segue into the greater one i really want people to examine with the advent of the loremaster buzz.

the fear surrounding LM has made it abundantly clear there are a few "milestone" abilities that people are (justifiably, rightfully) frustrated with.

gating them behind spell foci or the ability to cast 9th level spells would put these things firmly back into the domain of casters - which is something the casters could've already taken, it might come as "feat wiggle room" in their caster/LM build instead of a free ESF-tier cookie without any of the work.

i think most people's issue with loremaster is that it grants access to these things, not the AB/HP/AC/, levels to lore, +CL, etc.

chiefly, scrying. scrying is a mostly one-sided mechanic that is not something that can tangibly be interacted with by the viewee. it isn't fun to deal with. it's incredibly goofy. "can you put down a scry ward?" is as common a phrase as "please pass the salt."

when you have a mechanic that is influencing RP so heavily in a way that people not only find it negative, but they reflexively deal with it every log-in, it may be time to reconsider it.

ward is its own can of worms. i (personally, selfishly) want ward to remain. why? it's useful for assassins. i've witnessed a player lens because someone said "Hi" to him and he was toggled hostile by an assassin in stealth. he did not RP, he just lens'd.

ward is a bandaid solution to the problem that is instant-travel being so prevalent in the server. ideally we wouldnt need ward and teleporting wouldnt be such an issue. teleport secret falls in here, too.

i say "bandaid solution" here because (to me) it does not and has not felt like an interesting mechanic to deal with. whenever the topic of "teleport ward" comes up, it is basically, "hey man we really want to kill so and so but he'll just lens" - and that isn't interesting RP, but it also isn't interesting to have 10 weaponmasters dogpile you and hit you before you can make your escape.

something has to give, that much is clear. the solution? something to be discussed properly and not spat out in this little forum post.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I'm saying that the main reason loremaster was designed in first place was to give more characters a more even footing in RPing a loremaster. Whether or not you can grasp this fact, and whether or not it was implemented correctly, are different conversations.

I'm fairly certain I said all I can about loremaster in practice already, but in the vein of a true loremaster who remembers when it was changed to 5 from 10 levels vividly, I feel the need to correct the history here.

The initial class was fun. You were giving up stuff to get stuff. For example, a 13/10/7 (F/LM/WM) double master spread was a functional build. You gave up some raw power to be able to use scrolls (along with the other loremaster goodies), and hitting 80 lore was even more trivial than it is now. A thing for a thing.

When it was initially changed, to the chagrin of myself and quite a few others who were happy with their less powerful loremaster characters because we didn't care about raw power, the initial claim was "We want it to be a class people would play." That argument didn't hold water though, because there were-and still are, believe it or not- people who were willing to accept that they were not pvp kill bots on every character, and like the flavor of the class. In other words, there were plenty of us with the initial version.

Thats when the argument shifted to "a subset of players shouldn't have all the goodies". Basically, we were being told that our rp class looked fun, with our free languages and scrying and scrolls, and the power players wanted some. The fact that everyone who initially made a loremaster without raw power in mind now had builds that just looked dumb in the new context was not an issue to the devs working this, we were just casualties of the greater goal.

Now, to explain the greater goal, you have to understand loremaggeden. As I understand it, it was not a unilateral decision among the devs, it was a irongron thing after getting tired of seeing strings of timestop in every fight. I said this back then, and still believe it today, this change was a way to revert loremaggeden without reverting loremaggeden. I even said at the time, 18/7/5 would become the most popular build in short order.

To the credit of the arelith build group think, they were stubborn. They didn't see it as a viable wm splash at the time, and when I said it was well...I was still in the range where you could say "you must be new here" to dismiss any points I said instead of fighting on the merits of my points, everyone's favorite argument tactic. I thought about making it myself to prove my point, but I was so done with loremaster after having a very cool character torn apart that I wanted nothing to do with the new version. As a result, for a while people were running around saying the 25/5 loremaster was the best version. Not a bad build, but in a game where people can vanish around a corner and casters can become serious threats if you don't kill them fast, raw damage is always going to be the best.

Fast forward a few years, and sure enough everything this "new guy" said back then came to fruition.

I still believe that the only real crime here is that we lost a flavorful class in the pursuit of raw power, and that the doublemaster in its current form is fine power level wise and only as popular as it is because of qol when solo leveling. I just feel like we gotta be real on how we got here, and not look at it like it was made with a benign interest to make the game better for everyone.

[Ork]

The reason why LM was unpopular for WM back in the day is because of the advantages of 25 fighter/ 5 wm. We nerfed 25 fighter, we created 18/7/5. I'd still say old 25/5 WM was better than our current iteration of WM. And, truth be told, 18/7/5 isn't even as good as ye olde 20/7/3.

[Scurvy Cur]

I think I'd generally agree with Ork, though I'll add one important caveat. The 18/7/5 WM/LM sure as heck feels comfy. Long lasting buffs off of scrolls that refund half the time really softens a lot of the pve consumable price curve, which is always rough on mundane characters. I think 20/7/3 peaks higher than 18/7/5, but 18/7/5 is comfortable, and a lot of people play what's comfortable.

I even said at the time, 18/7/5 would become the most popular build in short order.

To the credit of the arelith build group think, they were stubborn. They didn't see it as a viable wm splash at the time, and when I said it was well...I was still in the range where you could say "you must be new here" to dismiss any points I said instead of fighting on the merits of my points, everyone's favorite argument tactic. I thought about making it myself to prove my point, but I was so done with loremaster after having a very cool character torn apart that I wanted nothing to do with the new version. As a result, for a while people were running around saying the 25/5 loremaster was the best version.

And I think I need to pull this apart a little.

The issue here is "in short order." Quick version? It wasn't the most popular WM build after loremageddon. Not even close. The most popular WM builds after Loremageddon were, in order of appearance:

Barb WM - Nerfed by moving level requirement on thundering rage back far enough that you can't pick up the bonus attack and WM levels at the same time. Also nerfed indirectly by scythe nerfs; this build wants to end fights inside 2 rounds.

CoT WM - Nerfed by cutting the relevant divine wrath AB/Damage bonuses from +7 to +3. Taking 4 AB out of a WM build usually kills it. No exceptions here.

Deep WM - Most common variant here was, iirc, 8 fighter/19 wm/3 rogue. Back when WM picked up a crapton of AB between levels 7 and 19, this accomplished passively what CoT WM accomplished with an active button. Feats and defense were both problematic, but who cares when you hit 58 AB by yourself, and the presence of any AB buffing class keeps your AB passively in the low 60s. AB gain on WM was nerfed, as well, I think, as the ability to take epic spec on a WM level.

25/5 WM - Again, nerfed by moving the AC and AB bonuses at fighter 25 back a little bit and spreading them out.

Loremaster WM - Present day. It's about in the same place as 20/7/3, imo. As described above, I think 20/7/3 outperforms by a little bit at peak, but LM/WM is more comfortable to run.

So I can't quite say that this is a case where you were right all along. Rather, you were wrong until every preceding strong wm build was nerfed, and the 5th or 6th best at time of Loremageddon finally saw its hour. If you had said "I predicted that, in about 4ish years of being anything but a meta defining, LM/WM would finally have its day in the sun"

[Nurel]

Barb WM - Nerfed by moving level requirement on thundering rage back far enough that you can't pick up the bonus attack and WM levels at the same time. Also nerfed indirectly by scythe nerfs; this build wants to end fights inside 2 rounds.

I guess you are referring to the Rogue splash and Fighter splash variants which are now obsolete

But this is still functional as 23/7 albeit extremely feat starved, and outshined by many other builds, but its still fun if that is your calling. You'll have to eschew ESF Discipline unless you play a human, though, which is painful in today's Arelith, esp as a low AC build

Good takes on the Paladin class btw, I hadn't realized Reckoner had become so strong

[AstralUniverse]

I'm saying that the main reason loremaster was designed in first place was to give more characters a more even footing in RPing a loremaster. Whether or not you can grasp this fact, and whether or not it was implemented correctly, are different conversations.

I'm fairly certain I said all I can about loremaster in practice already, but in the vein of a true loremaster who remembers when it was changed to 5 from 10 levels vividly, I feel the need to correct the history here.

The initial class was fun. You were giving up stuff to get stuff. For example, a 13/10/7 (F/LM/WM) double master spread was a functional build. You gave up some raw power to be able to use scrolls (along with the other loremaster goodies), and hitting 80 lore was even more trivial than it is now. A thing for a thing.

When it was initially changed, to the chagrin of myself and quite a few others who were happy with their less powerful loremaster characters because we didn't care about raw power, the initial claim was "We want it to be a class people would play." That argument didn't hold water though, because there were-and still are, believe it or not- people who were willing to accept that they were not pvp kill bots on every character, and like the flavor of the class. In other words, there were plenty of us with the initial version. And yet, the concensus was that loremaster was pretty bad, borderline useless across the playerbase, at that point in time...

Thats when the argument shifted to "a subset of players shouldn't have all the goodies". Basically, we were being told that our rp class looked fun, with our free languages and scrying and scrolls, and the power players wanted some. The fact that everyone who initially made a loremaster without raw power in mind now had builds that just looked dumb in the new context was not an issue to the devs working this, we were just casualties of the greater goal. All loremasters got buffed here, what are you even talking about..

Now, to explain the greater goal, you have to understand loremaggeden. As I understand it, it was not a unilateral decision among the devs, it was a irongron thing after getting tired of seeing strings of timestop in every fight. I said this back then, and still believe it today, this change was a way to revert loremaggeden without reverting loremaggeden. I even said at the time, 18/7/5 would become the most popular build in short order. you definitely dont understand loremaggedon it seems and this change was not done with "reverting loremaggedon" in mind at all

To the credit of the arelith build group think, they were stubborn. They didn't see it as a viable wm splash at the time,Because it really wasnt.... and when I said it was well...I was still in the range where you could say "you must be new here" to dismiss any points I said instead of fighting on the merits of my points, everyone's favorite argument tactic.OR, they just read your opinions and reached the (correct) conclusion that you are indeed new here, at the time. I thought about making it myself to prove my point, but I was so done with loremaster after having a very cool character torn apart that I wanted nothing to do with the new version. As a result, for a while people were running around saying the 25/5 loremaster was the best version. Not a bad build, but in a game where people can vanish around a corner and casters can become serious threats if you don't kill them fast, raw damage is always going to be the best. I wrote the 25 fighter 5 loremaster that still exists in the wiki to this day (and was edited a couple of times due to updates) and it was never a top-tier build, it was just a fun "timeless" build that stays relevant but not op across many years of updates

Fast forward a few years, and sure enough everything this "new guy" said back then came to fruition. All it took was 10 different BETTER wm builds getting nerfed for you to be correct, after 5 years. What a prophet you are.

I still believe that the only real crime here is that we lost a flavorful class in the pursuit of raw power, and that the doublemaster in its current form is fine power level wise and only as popular as it is because of qol when solo leveling. I just feel like we gotta be real on how we got here, and not look at it like it was made with a benign interest to make the game better for everyone.

I added red text as my answers within the quoute.

[Shadowy Reality]

...
Barb WM - Nerfed
CoT WM - Nerfed
Deep WM - nerfed
25/5 WM - Again, nerfed
Loremaster WM - Present day
...

I couldn't help but laugh, and think that maybe none of the non-wm classes were actually the problem, we keep nerfing whatever is used besides WM but this server mostly refuses to try touch WM (save for that one time we decided to buff them instead and give them gigantic AB, as you mentioned).

[Ork]

What precipitated the nerf isn't weaponmaster, but was loremaggedons freeing of a third class. Prior to loremaggedon, a UMD dip was necessary to access scrolls. After loremaggedon, you could instead take a different third class (or more levels in fighter) that gave you access to more damage or ab.

Don't blame wm for something loremaggedon broke. And, we're fine with just repeating this cycle over and over again apparently.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Man, that red text is hard to read, please don't do that to me again. I do appreciate everyone's efforts to smash my dreams of being clairvoyant though.

[Peacewhisper]

I have a hard time believing that barbarian/wm's or cot/wm's were ever more popular than the fighter variants. I do not doubt they were more popular among veteran power builders in certain discords, but among the general population? Player counts do not back this up.

[Nurel]

I have a hard time believing that barbarian/wm's or cot/wm's were ever more popular than the fighter variants. I do not doubt they were more popular among veteran power builders in certain discords, but among the general population? Player counts do not back this up.

Well, the most popular Cot/WM variant had a greatsword and Fighter as the base class

And the most popular Barb/WM also had 4 fighter in it for EWS, and there was also a Rogue variant. Back then Mighty Rage was not relevant and Thunder rage did not require 20 levels of Barb

[Peacewhisper]

Well, the most popular Cot/WM variant had a greatsword and Fighter as the base class

And the most popular Barb/WM also had 4 fighter in it for EWS, and there was also a Rogue variant. Back then Mighty Rage was not relevant and Thunder rage did not require 20 levels of Barb

That makes sense. When I think of Divine Champ/WM I think of the Paladin variant that I played. I still highly doubt those builds were more popular than the plain fighter ones. They probably should have been, they definitely were more powerful, but as we can see from liberator/wm just because a build is powerful does not always mean a lot of people will be playing it. A lot of new and casual players find building a weapon master to be tricky with all the feat requirements so most of them go fighter from my observations. Usually it's just the more experienced players building stuff like barb/wm, cot/wm, lib/wm, etc.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I have a hard time believing that barbarian/wm's or cot/wm's were ever more popular than the fighter variants. I do not doubt they were more popular among veteran power builders in certain discords, but among the general population? Player counts do not back this up.

You just have to assume when certain people say "more popular" they mean among the crowd who prides themselves on knowing more than everyone on mechanics, which is an accurate self-assessment on their part most of the time at least. I think sometimes they just don't realize how condescending it can sound when they act like they are the only people who count on arelith.

[Peacewhisper]

You just have to assume when certain people say "more popular" they mean among the crowd who prides themselves on knowing more than everyone on mechanics, which is an accurate self-assessment on their part most of the time at least. I think sometimes they just don't realize how condescending it can sound when they act like they are the only people who count on arelith.

Its probably not intentional, its just easy to fall for the assumption that most of your peers know as much as you do, especially when you surround yourself with like-minded individuals that do. A lot of them probably just don't give themselves enough credit, and do not even realize how they come across to others. As someone who actually helps and interacts with new players in-game, most of them definitely do not create their own spreadsheets and just go with whatever cookie-cutter build they think sounds fun to play, or wing it with one of the core D&D classes. This is why most powerful does not equal most played, the majority of the player base are not power builders, they are either casual players, role play focused, or new.

[Scurvy Cur]

I have a hard time believing that barbarian/wm's or cot/wm's were ever more popular than the fighter variants. I do not doubt they were more popular among veteran power builders in certain discords, but among the general population? Player counts do not back this up.

Nurel sort of touched on this already, but most of these builds had fighter in them. The basic formula always looked something like: Fighter + WM + AB/Damage boosting third class.

So for barb/wm, the build was, iirc, barb 17/wm 7/fighter 6. Enough fighter to help you qualify for wm and pick up the specialization bonuses, the wm levels you wanted, and then as much barbarian as possible. I want to say that at the time, the barb levels were worth 2 ab and 12 damage on a 2h weapon, plus an extra attack per round, but the ab and damage numbers might be slightly off.

Same story for cot wm. Enough fighter to qualify for either cot or wm, 7 wm levels, and then as many cot levels as possible to get the scaling damage and ab bonuses. Breakdown was 8 fighter/15 cot/7 wm. Result, all the normal fighter/wm stuff, and a +7 ab/damage active.

The reason for this is what ork says.

Prior to loremageddon, the third class choice on a wm was almost always going to be rogue or bard. You only needed 3 of that, you only needed 7 wm, so everything else went to fighter levels.

Post lore change, wm builds were free to toss the tumble/umd dip and slot in something that adds AB/damage. It’s not surprising then that what we saw was essentially players running down a checklist of the strongest offense-boosting classes to add to the stable fighter/wm template.

I also am interested that you bring up lib/wm. I think one reason that it doesn’t get played much is that it has two build setups competing with it: bg/wm and paladin.

BG/wm is just a direct improvement, even if you don’t use the summon at all. I’ve played both this and the liberator wm. BG is easier to gear, does more damage due to improved itemization options, comes in ~ 1 AB higher, and has a summon that makes pve pretty easy. It’s also more comfortable to play. So if the thing you want is a div might/shield wm, most people are likely to pick the bg variant, and just avoid using the summon if they’re on the surface.

Paladin is more a RP niche competition. If what you want is a champion of good that fights bad guys and is strong in PvP situations, you pick Paladin. It’s just a better class for this. If you want it to be freedom-leaning, you just pick a deity with liberty/anti-tyrant vibes, like Ilmater, Lathander, Corellon, or maybe Sune. Or you make it a Harper with H. Priest levels. Arelith doesn’t really scrutinize alignment hard enough for anyone to ask why your LG character has a vaguely CG vibe, and you can always point to religious reasons that they feel that way, in the event someone does ask. I’m also convinced that most of the Arelith playerbase will portray all forms of good alignment similarly enough to be interchangeable along the law-chaos axis.

These issues apply to all liberator builds, which is why, iirc, this class is played 5 times less frequently than blackguard and 6.5 times less frequently than paladin.

[Kythana]

These issues apply to all liberator builds, which is why, iirc, this class is played 5 times less frequently than blackguard and 6.5 times less frequently than paladin.

It's also unfinished. The level 20 capstone is still TBD, meanwhile Blackguard is getting +6 weapon and Aura of Despair for going all the way in.

What's sad too is that none of the Liberator methods really do anything for the class besides signature weapon. The WM build can't even get good grenades for investing 2 feats, gruesome is barely functional, and even then, a bit underwhelming considering it functionally only works on 1 grenade. Skirmish + Guerilla is almost an anti synergy for a class that wants to smite, and doesn't have hide + ms. Let alone the WM obviously having Whirlwind.

I have a feeling the class will gain a lot more popularity if/when it gets a dog, but who knows when that will happen.

[AstralUniverse]

I think Scurvy's comparison of lib and bg on a wm setup, a bit off perhaps. Lib can afford 7th wm, which essentally unlocks x3 weapons with +4 ab, where as bg is mostly forced scimitar but gets the same ab on it. BG can also afford a great str feat and an ending str mod 1 higher than lib, but lib gets +2 from improved signature weapon and has a net gain of 1 ab with all things considered, and a much better weapon selection, with 16-20 x4 crits, and woodland stride.
If I had to guess why bg gets more play-rate its because 1) bg bulls makes gearing much easier and the summon makes pve easier and 2) I agree that the law-chaos axis has less expression for good characters in arelith, and it's easier to just be a paladin at that point.

[Scurvy Cur]

These issues apply to all liberator builds, which is why, iirc, this class is played 5 times less frequently than blackguard and 6.5 times less frequently than paladin.

It's also unfinished. The level 20 capstone is still TBD, meanwhile Blackguard is getting +6 weapon and Aura of Despair for going all the way in.

What's sad too is that none of the Liberator methods really do anything for the class besides signature weapon. The WM build can't even get good grenades for investing 2 feats, gruesome is barely functional, and even then, a bit underwhelming considering it functionally only works on 1 grenade. Skirmish + Guerilla is almost an anti synergy for a class that wants to smite, and doesn't have hide + ms. Let alone the WM obviously having Whirlwind.

I have a feeling the class will gain a lot more popularity if/when it gets a dog, but who knows when that will happen.

Last October, Kenji put together a list of proposed changes that I think would about do the trick (though I hate the aesthetic of making it another summoner), provided Gruesome gets ironed out to work properly. I'd like to see a bit more flavor out of the class, but it would be a reasonable start.

I agree that it's unfinished, though, and too reliant on a kit that was clearly designed for an 8+INT skills/level class with hide/ms, rather than a 4+INT class without.

[Scurvy Cur]

I think Scurvy's comparison of lib and bg on a wm setup, a bit off perhaps. Lib can afford 7th wm, which essentally unlocks x3

Lib can go this route, but you're better off going 8/17/5, imo. The extra feat you get by doing this is epic prowess in most setups. Overall, I'd rather have a 12-20/x3 than a 16-20/x4, when the AB is a wash (which mostly it is).

[Kythana]

provided Gruesome gets ironed out to work properly.

sadly, gruesome is essentially a dead feat now. Despite being initially approved to work with acid bombs, which it said on the initial feat text, it never actually worked. And only recently did the wiki text finally get updated, after it was internally decided that it would be too strong. ...Despite never working in the first place. And last I checked, it's not even working for traps now either.

I don't have high hopes that it gets finished anytime soon, especially when stuff like loremaster gets brought up ad nauseum and prompts focus that way to distract against the literal unfinished, broken classes still.

[Joe46]

I'll chime here since I actually play a lib/wm and I previously played a BG/WM (funny enough same character, long story for another time that one)

Both Lib and BG versions will end up with the same (38) strength. Both can afford all essential martial feats (IE, AS, EWF, EWS). I know this because I have two feats in my lib used for SkF: bluff and self:bluff. One of them substitutes IE, the other was a spare feat.

BG will have in theory a +4 corrupt weapon so he's guaranteed a +4 AB. Lib is weird in this regard, as improved signature's AB stacks with whatever AB the weapon you wield have. A longsword will have 49 AB if I remember properly as a BG, for a Liv it'll be 50. A rapier will be 49 for both.

Liv, unlike BG, has synergy at 16. This allows it to fit both 7 wm levels AND EWS. Without counting for your fiendish pet, a Liv/wm will in all cases be stronger than a BG/wm mechanically.

BG though, is way more comfy. You have a free cast of BS to make your gearing not hell, you have your pet for PvE (PVP, expect it to be WoF'd away). BG IS the most popular for a reason, but it's not because it's mechanically stronger in a PvP setting

[Kushion]

The summon is absolutely a massive factor, as wofing a BG/wms summon as a non cleric requires mords gem > wof. that’s a lot of time standing still vs one of the highest dps builds. The summon additionally has increased multiplier, so doing the mords/wof shuffle leaves you vulnerable to quick deletion.

blackguard also gains a 2d6 vs Good bonus on corrupt, which allows a 12-20 x3 scim to punch up really high. Situational ofc, but a broad catagory.

liberator does have some variety in weapon, but being locked into CG does limit this (depending on race, dwarves might have it good), unless exotic tax is paid.

bg additionally has Use Poison. Always a bonus on STR builds.

At the end of the day, it’s difficult to make judgment until/if Liberator is ever finished.

[Kenji]

The basic formula always looked something like: Fighter + WM + AB/Damage boosting third class.

We've done it with Loremageddon before, we can do it again with WMageddon:

1. delete overhaul WM
2. leave a void in WM class slot
3. players fill the WM void with ranger, barb, warlock, paladin, swashbuckler, bg, rogue, or monk
4. Players just play Paladin and Spellswords

And so begins the the era of complete mechanics and balance anarchy

[Scurvy Cur]

The basic formula always looked something like: Fighter + WM + AB/Damage boosting third class.

We've done it with Loremageddon before, we can do it again with WMageddon:

1. delete overhaul WM
2. leave a void in WM class slot
3. players fill the WM void with ranger, barb, warlock, paladin, swashbuckler, bg, rogue, or monk
4. Players just play Paladin and Spellswords

And so begins the the era of complete mechanics and balance anarchy

Paladin, spellsword, harbinger, AA, warlock.

It's a genius idea. Nothing's imbalanced if we force everyone to play one of two builds, and mirror them off of each other.

[Aellowyn]

There is so much focus on the 2% of all recent builds.

The player count mentions 10% of the character counts are Weapon Masters, meaning 90% are something other than a Weapon Master.

Approximately 20% of Loremasters are WM meaning 2% of all players are Loremaster/WM.

98% of characters in the recent counts are not Loremaster/WM.

In my conclusion, the Loremaster/Weapon Master, are popular for attention and nerfs for being a two percenter class choice.