Plot Fatigue - What is too many?

[D4wN]

I'm not really sure where to put this, so I'll just put it here. But I was wondering what people's thoughts were around the volume of world-ending/huge/long-running DM plots.

Personally, I have experienced one major plot (mostly as an outsider) after the other ever since the Weatherstone (mind you I really liked that plot). Which has been RL months. And many of the plots I have been partially exposed to were never resolved leaving that unsatisfied feeling of not being able to get closure.

When there are such big plots where the whole server is drawn to it like a moth to a flame to try and get a piece of the spotlight, I notice that settlements are drained, empty and abandoned. That player events get interrupted and people are even afraid to host events for fear that their efforts will go to waste when that one person attending gets some message to ask their presence in an on-going DM event or simply barely anyone shows up because they’re all elsewhere tending to a crisis. Or people can’t sail because it takes you 10 RL minutes to take three steps due to the lag.

I'm not trying to make anyone look bad, criticise or have this sound as a complaint on the forums about anyone, but I'm genuinely interested to see if plot fatigue is a thing or if it's just me that's experiencing this. And if it is the case others feel this too, maybe it would actually be very constructive feedback. If I'm the only one, please ignore and carry on! This is also not about the quality of the plots, they’re fine. It’s merely the quantity and frequency of them.

[Perplexia]

i've had similar experiences, finding myself disappointed when everybody's attention is taken up by the latest high-stakes combat-heavy plotline, leaving little opportunity to drag others along for moments of character-based roleplay

i don't mind frequent DM events at all, but when the world is ending every other week and it almost always culminates in a huge lag-fest mob-grinder battle, i begin to find it hard to care even in-character; after all, there are rarely any significant consequences (the last i can recall was the forming of Lake Benwick, and i suppose Bendir got a facelift following the weatherstone crisis?)

i very much enjoyed the arcane tower archmage plot, and would prefer to see more like it coming from the DM team, but besides that? this server thrives on player-driven content imo, and i'd be comfortable having large-scale and particularly long-term DM-run events being few and far between

[Aeryeris]

I feel like the scale is the issue. Small plots for small groups of players are great.

Plots that touch the whole server should be exceedingly rare.

This year we have had the following major storylines that pulled in a large part of the server:

• The Weatherstone
• The Plague
• The Drow pirate
• The Undead of Minmir
• Elemental crown

Three of these plots are still ongoing or unfinished as far as I know.

Each of these plots has been impressive, well-written, and interesting. However: plots of this scale drown out other RP. The return on them is mostly focused on a few major characters, with everyone else is usually just along for the ride.

We have a server culture where as soon as anything major happens, wisps or speedies go out and people drop their RP to go rush to the scene of the crime. And this makes sense with the level of the threat presented to us. Should a character really ignore a call that the city is flooding? That there's a massive cube eating people around the Government district? That there's a laserbeam taking out people in the square? That there's an army of undead marching south into populated land? Reasonably most people would be bending their character if they ignored these calls.

I have heard a great deal of "I am tired of all this" recently, from various people, in various discords, in various roles.
It definitely seems like there is a feeling of fatigue regarding these plots.

[Rubricae]

having back to back eventlines with incredibly mature themings and violent depictions of terrible atrocities is absolutely tiring
i've gone out of my way to avoid almost all settlements because it seems every few weeks there's another big plague, another terrorist attack, another world ending event.

even the undead battlefield oriented one in minmir, which i was a participant in, i couldn't stay for the entire time because i have become so tired of everything surrounding them. which is no fault of the eventline itself, it just comes after a good six to eight months of straight events that tackle subject matter that is way beyond their purview and scope. which hasn't been fun.

i've had friends that do not play the game anymore or have taken extended breaks or permanently shelved characters tied to areas or settlements because of these constant events.

whether or not these events are quality is a separate issue unto itself, but there should be either more communication or spacing out of these events. communication as to ensure there isn't burnout amongst the players, and that these events are not bowling people over.

i've shelved three characters permanently over it(waiting for a good time to roll), and i know i'm not the only one that's done this.

[ArelithMarketCrash]

It is exhausting and I don't like that attention is always on those things instead of player driven plots and happenings.

I wasn't around to observe or participate for most of those events in the last year, but it also doesn't feel like there's been much impact from most of these events, in the aftermath? It always returns to a status quo where most PCs I meet in game forget anything happened, at best as a memory of how X character or Y faction was irresponsible, dangerous or evil during it. No doubt because immediately after or sometimes at the same time something else terrible is happening so attention immediately shifts towards that.

No hate toward the DMs behind them, I DM PnP, sometimes its hard to make everyone happy on a table, let alone a server with hundreds of people.

[30 RANGER FROM THE MOON]

it's a common almost "unconscious" sentiment from most people. you either hear echoes of it or see it directly in unofficial and official Arelith discords alike.

im not going to get deep in the weeds of why these events are ran this way other than saying: on public servers with limited staff, you will always see these player-mob world-ending events. nuance is hard. nuance with 150 players and 5 staff who feel comfy running events? impossible.

this is purely speculation, many-such-anecdotes, and my opinion, but the server has felt fairly dry for the past few months, and that's with bouts of limited playtime and bouts of grinding.

i feel like the DM injection of content is being done to facilitate RP in lieu of the faction/settlement/group leads. a lot of them are burnt & or gone.

the few that remain are either tired or running out of ways to entertain themselves and their citizens. PvP can (emphasis on CAN, not is) be a good starter for that, but the server culture for that has shifted harshly. that leaves player events (mostly social stuff) and that's been done to death.

next up is DM content injection. which can be a good and awesome thing, it can pull players of every character-type & group into interesting headbutting, cooperation among unlikely allies, etc etc. problem is, it isn't.

people would be fine with these events being ever-pervasive and "world ending" if they were real, but they aren't, and that's part of the FATIGUE FACTOR. imagine you are john paladin, you are a minor upstart hero. how could you NOT go to the event? how could you NOT vanquish evil?

all the people saying "just dont attend" have got it all wrong. anyone who says "make up an excuse" is also missing the point. this is a public server. we're here to interact with strangers and friends alike. i want to go where the action is. not sit it out.

if you don't attend, your character doesn't make sense.
if you do attend, nothing changes.

most people i know would agree, OOCly, you have no true agency in any of these events. you show up fully buffed, eat the lag, click on a few NPCs, then wait for the next chunk of the plot to roll out.

i've killed manfried a thousand times in my hours of writ leveling. he's back every time. i ignore it every time. i get my writ exp at the end of that. that's fine. with the manfriend event? you have everyone's collective attention pulled to this NPC, and yet, most people expect (rightfully so) for this event to blow over and see manfried chilling back in his basement, ready for the next writworkers to cut him down.

that ain't fun. that's exhausting. if that's what happens, it means that all these thousands of collective hours of RP surrounding this pivotal event were, again, fake.

[Sincra]

Coming at this from the perspective of a player and not a dev,

I recently put my thoughts on dm events into a short as possible statement.

The only good dm quest is the one that doesn't allow 500 frothing people to see an island wide shout and congregate in a place they never normally would, thus pushing out the resident individuals the event was originally centered around.

I stand by this statement as this is ultimately what killed the vibe of most of the Freeport group when I was playing back during the Weatherstone then Plague event.
It halted ongoing rp, brought people to the places for extended time who wanted nothing to do with a places established rp scene, and consequently displaced the rp that was being done in ways that felt like others grabbed the scenes or DM's disrupted player planning.

Intentionally or not when a DM runs an event it also takes people away from player ran initiative. This is especially problematic if events are advertised and alot of effort is made.
In one such case an event had been advertised isle wide for a specific time on a specific day for a real life month, and a DM started a plague event attack in Cordor at precisely the same time.
It is easier for DM's to run events than players, especially at scale.

In the end, any one such DM event is sort of fine, you can avoid it, move around to find the rp you still wanted to do.
But then they almost always drag on. And on. And on.

Tldr:
DM's are disruptive if they don't take extra care over scale, duration and the content of any given plot which is why people can burn out by even being near them, especially if said players are trying to create rp themselves that isn't just SocRP and wait for dm event stuff.

[Kythana]

The problems stemming from these DM events are only just a window into the wider problems of Arelith as a whole.

These plots run on for months, and the same characters continuously get propped up, over and over. It's hard to feel a sense of finality when the same supporting NPC, the same villain NPC, and same Player Characters are showing up for months on end, doing the same thing.

I have now met the same character across four different characters now, and seen them involved in DM events in a spotlight position again and again. And often when these characters aren't in that position? They try to bludgeon their way in. And this isn't just one character, I've seen numerous examples of it, and some players are notorious for it.

It's like a Saturday morning cartoon, where you know the villain of the week will get defeated in the end, and everything goes back to normal. It's trite and puts me to sleep.

---

Furthermore, Arelith has an identity crisis about what it wants to be. It tries to build these epic level events with island-ending threats, despite most of the time we are focusing on our mundane settlement life of: Owning a house, stocking our shop, adventuring and making gold, talking to each other in a bar, ect.

We, as players, have a fundamental understanding that core parts of the modules are not going to be destroyed over night. So when the latest DM plot is involving some incredibly high stakes, like the destruction of a settlement, we know that's not going to happen.

We know that whatever major event is not going to result in the destruction of Cordor. We know that Myon won't vanish over night. We know that the island isn't going to explode. The server will move on, as it has before.

This is why low-level, grounded events with minimal stakes are far more engaging. If the threat is that a NPC we have grown to like might die? Well, that certainly can happen. And when I believe the stakes as a player, it makes it so much easier to get immersed into the story.

---

If there is room for growth, I would like to see DM events be smaller, and more grounded in scope. Find and isolate a small group of players, and give them something to do for a week. You don't need to engage them 24/7, just offer a little nudge, and give them the push for RP.

Mystery plots are really fun for this reason! Let the players speculate, give them hints and clues about what is going on. Let players roll skill checks about it.

And the best part of it all? Having a touch of personalization is amazing. I was blown away during a DM event once where I had a lore check, and the message actually included comments about my race, and the context of the information I was seeking.

It's the small stuff that is memorable, not the huge lagfests.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

i had to cancel an event last night because of a massive dm event that was happening. a lot of people just up and left to attend the event

anyway i agree with what is being said. just my personal experience here.

[HauntedAngel]

Just chiming in with an Underdark perspective! Context: I've been playing on the server since January, and currently have around 2600-2700 hours in the game- almost all of those have been spent exclusively in the Underdark.

We definitely don't get many DM events in the UD. The two major ones I can remember affecting us were more-so related to the other servers, the Weatherstone event, and the Crowns event. From what I understand, both of these were done on a smaller scale than they were done elsewhere, and honestly this feels pretty good to me. Like, DM events happen so rarely in the UD, that they don't really overstay their welcome. And when they DO show up, they usually feel special, and enjoyable to interact in even if you're just a 'minor character' in the event.

I like the way things have been in the UD. The infrequency of the events makes them more palatable, and means that they won't be disruptive to the playerbase, which allows us to spend time on our own character driven plots and such.

[Coolguy McMagic]

I mostly agree with what's already been stated here. Smaller scale events where characters have more of a personal stake in the affair are generally more enjoyable, especially if there actually is a genuine chance of failure with appropriate consequences.

Here's some loose ideas that may be helpful for bigger events:

Don't let combat be the main way of resolving the plot. This will turn the server into a big lagfest and also sort of forces the DMs to make the threat ridiculously strong, often leading to inflated HP and AC. This feels unbelievable and can become tedious. I'd just accept that the players aren't going to be significantly challenged by the Big Bad, to be honest.

Allow for parallel paths and activities. Getting additional DMs involved to split the path and offer multiple tasks, so that not all players congregate at a singular spot. This might also make it easier for players to shine that would otherwise be overlooked.

Scale down the threat. I don't necessarily think all of these events were/are as "world-ending" as people have claimed here, but I do think having the threat be too overblown practically forces not only good-aligned characters to attend, but will also attract neutral and evil characters to do something about the threat (they don't want the world to end either, obviously). This is not necessarily a bad thing, as events should appeal to a broad range of characters, but it seems universally agreed that there's already too many players at each big event.

Offer excuses for not being there. This one is tricky and should mostly be left to the players' creativity, but maybe DMs could also facilitate this more if possible. For example, a limitation of how many players can be teleported to the scene of action could be imposed. This might also lead to conflict between players (and accusations of DM favoritism) but if people really are so tired of these events, maybe it could work?

Let the plotlines impact the world outside of the main events. This worked really well during the Weatherstone and Plague events, I felt. I purposefully avoided playing a major role in these and I enjoyed both of these plotlines a lot as a result. But thanks to the various weather effects and the plague spreading, I could still feel the impact they had.

Offer hooks for players outside of the actual events. As Kythana mentioned, giving the players some ideas on what to do even when the event is not currently happening can do a lot to facilitate RP between players and might somewhat lower DM "dependence".

Deactivate messengers. Maybe make wisps and parrots not work in zones of current DM event action? That way you can't just invite all of your friends from every other settlement into the storyline. That might alleviate the issue of DM events interfering with player events.

More Underdark events. Those are super rare these days and usually an offshoot of surface events. Maybe have some more events down there. Fewer characters are in the Underdark, so this would naturally end up a bit smaller.

[Cnaym]

For me it's random sky beam deleting my ship while announcements tell me to respect the pvp rules of sailing, or getting thanos snapped to a pocket dimension by the latest force ghost that I've never seen or heard before or since.

The best event was still a talking mouse in a tavern basement, or a random priest NPC explaining their deity to me and another player because a DM felt like doing something cute.

Fighting hordes of undead with better stats than most dragons while lagging is a bit like a power point presentation of why I don't go to event stuff often.

My recommendation is having the settlement leaders do stupid decisions that the players have to sort out among each other. Do a legal dispute over a painting and see us wage war within/ a week, probably more engaging and a lot less effort on the special effects side of things.

[Preserver]

I feel fatigue for sure - but at the same time I feel a measure of understanding for the Staff, or those members of the Staff that have their heart set upon a story that they'd really like to tell.
I'll make a few considerations, and whilst some of them may seem as part of a negative rant, please do understand that all is written in a constructive spirit and with no personal attacks directed at anybody.

.oO About Player Agency Enacting Changes Oo.

When I was playing my second "big" PC, Elspeth Derlson, I happened upon a player-character wanting to renovate the Cordor Archives. At that time, since I was still a bit naive relatively to the workings of Arelith, I had no issue giving my personal approval (as I was Chancellor in Cordor) and then messaging the Staff relatively to the initiative.
I was informed that the area however wouldn't have undergone change, for a number of - I must say - pretty understandable reasons (it's a writ area, it would require change to a big area, etc...). It was at that point that I understood that the scope of player agency upon permanent change onto Arelith is limited. That is not an issue per-se, it is a feature of the system: Arelith presents a stable environment that cannot allow for every whim to be turned into a server change.
Informing the PC ICly was awkward, but everybody subsequently went on with their life.

I feel that the two most recent "big" changes to the server, both enacted by the Staff with player participation, rather than agency-driven action, were the founding of "new" Guldorand and the Lords' War - the first brought considerable permanent setting changes, whilst the second one, though connoted by minor tangible alterations to the server, had a big cultural impact on Arelith (though I believe such things tend to last for a very short while).

.oO About DM Events Oo.

DM events on Arelith are often very serious.
Not necessarily due to lacking levity, but frequently being about big threats. Previous posters already made clear how some of the recent events impacted the public perception as being "world-ending" (I use this definition because it is suitably dramatic - it is world-ending in relation to the little Arelith-world we live in). My personal perception is that more than ONE of these events per IRL year is too much - a more reasonable ground would be more than ONE of these events per IRL six months.

As it was mentioned, it is odd to expect player-characters not to participate, because it is often heavily implied how participation to the altercations, mysteries, and battles will contribute saving Arelith from a terrible fate - and we all play characters that are usually, if not heroic, at least interested in Arelith's fate because that is literally the scope of the area we play in. Therefore, the events will summon all sorts of characters, thus clearly catering to no specific character (save for the few who happen to have the strongest interactions with NPCs and events). The sense of urgency is so great that personal reasons, grudges, and codes are often put aside - which is an interesting dramatic beat... every now and then.

The events are often so big and happen so closely that player-characters do not have room to breathe in the setting, such is the push to the next big thing, the next conundrum to solve, the next big evil guy to defeat. Not to mention that, given that most PCs are lvl 30 murder machines, the occasional big evil guy must be an even worse thing - which pushes verisimilitude in the corner and sometimes discourages those players that feel their efforts are meaningless against the raw power or even the plans and designs of the adversary. Yet equally lacking verisimilitude would be refusing to fight the enemy. Again: an interesting dramatic beat... every now and then.

.oO Solution Oo.

The fact that a solution is required is... misleading.
This is not the sort of problem that requires immediate solution - yet one, I believe that deserves focus and, possibly, a progressive change in how events are approached.

One of my favourite DM-lead events was a long treasure-hunt by the end of which the parties realised all they had been hunting for was a board game that some entity had crafted for those they loved - it was heart warming, had plenty of levity, and did not imply doom was upon us all.

But even better, I think, would be if the standard for DM-events became a separation of two different types of events.

• World Interactions - During which the DM happens upon an already "living" situation in the game world and roleplays as NPCs, monsters, environment, creating a series of meaningful yet simple interactions for the PCs that are already present. Ideally, these events would not summon masses, they would be mostly impromptu, and would last for as long as the interactions make sense to exist - self contained.

• World Events - The Lord's War, Guldorand's founding, the Star event that preambled the rework of Warlock. These events would be big, ideally a multi-part and multi-DM affair, and would be enacted in coordination with the staff to end with a meaningful change made to the module or the server (Example: Port Azoun is added, Guldorand is reworked, the Warlock is added as a fully fledged class).

That would be my personal preference.
Would anything impede DMs to run other sorts of events? No of course - all this is not meant to be prescriptive.
Rather, a general approach - try not to involve indefinitely big masses by making the event cater to potentially everybody, try not to make the opposition always overwhelming or overwhelmingly threatening for Arelith as a whole, see if it possible to coordinate for big events to mean big changes.

[Eters]

I am always happy to see DMs interact with players and give them something to do, however I agree with all that was stated above. Without going too far into echoing the very valid arguments presented above, I'll simply say what I'd wish to see more from the DMs as a player who's been enjoying Arelith for more than 8 years now.

1- DMs being the world, rather than the gods moving the world. I know it sounds ominous, but it isn't. What I mean by this is that, I as a player always feel greatly appreciated, and "seen" by the staff when one of my events leads to some degree of interaction with the world. For example a lecture is held about a slightly sensitive subject, PC scholars etc flock to the lecture but moments after there is a commotion outside, a group of people who reject the idea behind the lecture are manifesting. It's short scale, It's a logical possibility to the event, it allows people who are not usually involved in these events to take part (guards, etc..) and it makes everyone feel seen by the DMs, which is always a good feeling.

I think we have recently been lacking in such interactions (though I have seen a few out and about and I have always enjoyed them), but focusing on these reactionary moments, I believe, would greatly enhance the player experience with the world, and make it feel overall less static. Of course, I leave it to DMs discretion to do so without taking over the wheel and leaving player agency into player events.

2- World ending plots should be rare, and in my opinion should have a very tangible and real possibility of failing. Since the fall of Wharftown it feels as if the world has been to a halt, the changes that came after were decisions taken by the lead team of the server (Benwick's removal, Myon's revamping), but no event has truly threatened to change the world permanently, even the Weatherstone Crisis, or the Minmir crisis didn't carry that weight to them, because we as players know that events like these will pass, no matter the actions taken and eventually everything will go back as before.

Between that and the high frequency of apocalyptic events it is normal for fatigue to build up. It is why I think world ending plotlines should always bear that risk of change in them, like the first fall of Benwick, the destruction of Wharftown, and keeping them flavorfully scarce.

[Irongron]

I've long favoured small party short, low level events over the massive ones (but there can be space for both).

I recently held a staff meeting with writers and DMs about how we can overhaul our quest process. This includes steps/frameworks for micro-events, advice for players and staff alike how to limit participation, including possible instancing of disrupted locations (when narratively feasible).

Most important is my desire for party leaders to be able to actuvate an 'available for quests' flag, similar to AMA, where DMs can immediately see which current parties are amenable to DM interaction. This won't be a full opt out for those that don't activate it, eapecially in regard to isle-wide narratives, but should certainly very much help mitigate issues outlined above.

I do feel any quest/events should be heavily limited in the amount of participants, as when too large they don't just affect lag, but 75% of the time are just too slow/chaotic to work properly.

Properly managing events is an area close to my heart, and one I just know we can do better in, so thanks for the input.

Between that and the high frequency of apocalyptic events it is normal for fatigue to build up.

Sounds suspiciously close to the real world experience. Pwrhaps our DMs are watching too much CNN.

[D4wN]

Some of the best plots I've seen on Arelith have been around a certain villain, certain hero, a certain up and comer or someone entirely new. Smaller scale centered around an individual or group/faction/settlement. I realize you'll likely get accusations of favoritism, but the truth is.. You'll get that anyway. True or not. So it really doesn't matter if you host a personal plot for John. As long as the next time you host a personal plot for Jane. And John and Jane aren't the people who always get the attention.

The Speaker of Fortunes who was essentially an RP enabler simply by giving people a choice and developing their character. No battles, no conflict. Just a moral choice and RP. A single mysterious NPC that had a lot of positive impacts on several players and very personal. Avalon's little interactions with local Cordorian NPCs like Thomas Steed or even the house cat that crawls on your lap or the talking whale are amongst the most memorable and enjoyable interactions I've had with DMs. A small interaction from an NPC or group of NPCs on a lecture you're holding, a language lesson or even attending a party or performance have far more enjoyment from players than crisis after crisis.

I also really liked the Weatherstone events because it seemed diced up in smaller events that targeted multiple groups giving each of them a purpose and a way they could contribute. You weren't constantly being pushed to act either. Different people could do different things. I liked simply going to the Weatherstone and hanging out with people I don't usually get to interact with while standing around eating snacks people brought.

[Cthuletta]

I think the core issue isn't any one thing in particular but instead a variety of factors clashing.

Long events that take months to conclude. On it's own that's not everyone's cup of tea, but every long and complicated event I've seen has been a really interesting story to either partake in or hear about. They are interesting to me. The frequency however can lead to burn out.
Overlapping DM Event Storylines. This isn't so bad when the stories are far enough apart from each other location-wise. However as of lately they've been right on top of each other within the same areas which for me and others I know has caused a lot of fatigue.
Major 'World Ending' Events that include the whole server. Personally I actually REALLY like these. I love playing through these even in a minor way though I did have a more prominent role in one that affected the whole island (The Weatherstone!). Stressful at the time BECAUSE it involved everyone, but in hindsight it was one of my favourite plots to date. One after the other, though.... that does get a bit intense. Spacing those out would help a lot. Someone mentioned maybe a cap of one every six months or so.
Add those three together and you get fatigue-soup.

This last point I wanted to talk about because I feel it's also a BIG factor in the player fatigue and also not something the Team itself can quite control, is how we as players interact during these plots. The majority of players seem to go one of two ways. Neither one is malicious but both have pros and cons.
This may be a hot take to which no offense is meant to anyone at all. I like you nerds.

Player Group A encounters a DM Plot. They keep the information to themselves, try to solve it as the issue grows bigger and more people become aware of it as they are progressing the story.
Pros: The team handling the event at it's core is likely easier for the DM to manage/communicate with. Information between the smaller group is more concise and plans to progress move forward faster.
Cons: Others start thinking either the DM is playing favouritism or that the group is being exclusive/selfish. I know I myself have been guilty of that thinking, which is unfair to those players or that DM. I'm sorry about that. There's also the chance the smaller group gets a potential solution wrong since there's less ideas/perspectives floating around.

Player Group B encounters a DM plot. They spread the information to include others, and allow others into the story as the issue grows bigger and more people become aware of it as the story is progressing.
Pros: People feel included, they get to see the story close up and personal as it unfolds and lend their RP to a potential solution.
Cons: The sheer amount of people who can get involved in a story this way is staggering. It's a lot of voices, a lot of ideas, and a lot of people for a DM to manage, on top of characters who might disagree or butt heads on how something is handled. I have seen this lead to OOC bickering and hurt feelings. There's also the engine limitations for big meetings/fights that cause unbearable lag.

Not particularly ideal. I've tried both, I've watched both, I've seen the good and bad of each scenario from both inside and outside and the same things seem to happen each time even though the intentions are almost always good. Add this to the three things above and the environment will make most people feel exhausted. Spacing out events and having smaller events is a good start in my opinion! As is perhaps a bit more leniency and understanding to our fellow players who do find themselves at the center of those events and the DMs who run them.

[Peacewhisper]

I'll just chime in and say I tend to avoid the majorly public DM plots. Everyone on the island always tries to muscle their way in and we end up with a lag fest because the server just can't handle that many players in one area. By this point my character has already seen all of the main events multiple times anyways. It's easy to shrug off a plague or some undead when you've seen it a dozen times before. I do appreciate the smaller scale plots and interactions, especially when they are tailored to specific characters. Those are always a joy to participate in.

I know a lot of people catch a whiff of DM NPC and want to pop open their wisp bottles and start calling half the isle over. Can we stop that? If you're lucky enough to stumble upon a DM event, just enjoy it and play along, quit calling your whole faction/settlement/extended family to hijack it. I know its what your character would do, I know you want to play the DM event with all your friends, but usually its easier on the DM (and server) to just go with the flow and let it play out with 5 people instead of 50. If the DM wants the whole server to congregate in one spot or know about something, they can use a server-wide shout for that.

[Kythana]

Here's some loose ideas that may be helpful for bigger events:

Don't let combat be the main way of resolving the plot. This will turn the server into a big lagfest and also sort of forces the DMs to make the threat ridiculously strong, often leading to inflated HP and AC. This feels unbelievable and can become tedious. I'd just accept that the players aren't going to be significantly challenged by the Big Bad, to be honest.

100000% this, yes. Please.

NWN is a solved game. No matter how much AC, AB, special attacks, immunities, resistances, whatever the mob has, players are going to find a way to defeat your enemy. I absolutely despise fighting the bloated stat DM mobs.

We have all these skills, like Bluff, Perform, Taunt, Leadership, Spot, Listen, Lore and Intimidate. All these could have an impact in a social dynamic.

Give us dialogue battles! Give us puzzles! Let players roll these to solve the problem. Being able to talk down a boss, or find a creative alternative solution that doesn't involve combat is extremely fun.

The one event I had the most fun with, the Myon Obyrith event, the most memorable parts of that were just sitting around talking, with the occasional lore check.

Allow for parallel paths and activities. Getting additional DMs involved to split the path and offer multiple tasks, so that not all players congregate at a singular spot. This might also make it easier for players to shine that would otherwise be overlooked.

Another fantastic idea, really. If you have 30 players for the final boss battle, splitting them up into 4 groups of 7-8 is way more manageable. Especially if you can find a way to divide them among servers.

This is even better when you have multiple sub-factions in the more wide reaching overarching plot. Keeping the Cordor people together, or the Myon people together, or that one faction together, ect, makes it a lot more cohesive. These players know each other, and it makes the roleplay flow a lot more naturally instead of huge events with total strangers.

Furthermore, just avoid Surface in general for big conclusions. It's by the worst server to do any sort of DM plots because it devolves into lag so easily.

Offer excuses for not being there. This one is tricky and should mostly be left to the players' creativity, but maybe DMs could also facilitate this more if possible. For example, a limitation of how many players can be teleported to the scene of action could be imposed. This might also lead to conflict between players (and accusations of DM favoritism) but if people really are so tired of these events, maybe it could work?

I have actually seen this happen, and the consequences of it. The big conclusion for a DM event I was part of specifically involved an instanced area that players were teleported to. And some other players got left behind, and sadly felt very left out.

Even still, I think this is a great tool that should be used more often. While making a separate map is probably a bit much for DMs to do constantly, it would help tremendously to have little setpieces like this. Even more if you can put them on the lesser populated servers to help mitigate the load, IE, Guldorand.

It does feel really good when it works though, because you do not have to worry about things going sideways when the Cordor army arrives. You don't have to account for UD raiders come in. You can just focus on the players ahead, and the idea you have planned, and how the players react to it.

Deactivate messengers. Maybe make wisps and parrots not work in zones of current DM event action? That way you can't just invite all of your friends from every other settlement into the storyline. That might alleviate the issue of DM events interfering with player events.

Unfortunately, I do not see this being a solution. Even if messengers were disabled, players would still just teleport away and send physical messages. If teleport was disabled? Players would just summon. Summon disabled? Discord messages/Greentext.

Long range communication and traveling is just too easy, especially when the events are happening in easily identified public areas.

Unless the area that the DM event is taking place specifically is inaccessible, it will happen if it involves combat or potential of combat.

[Myrmidos]

I had this big thing I had drafted a couple of times, in order for my thoughts to be coherent and clear, but at some point the frustration started to leak through, so instead, bullet points instead of me rambling.

• Less island sinking events: Events that, after a ten second glance, would make the average denizen of the island go "If that's not handled, everyone is going to die." For the vast majority of the adventuring population (aka the pc's), it's not feasible to ignore something like the Weatherstone, or Minmir, or what have you. These are island extinction level happenings. They should be few and far in between, otherwise the concept of crisis loses it's meaning.

• Consequences: I'm going to be the bad guy and just...immediately point out the obvious, using Minmir as the example, because it's the most recent. Realistically, after this stunt? Everyone associated with Minmir Keep should be either executed or forced off the island, and Banefaith should immediately start to be heavily regulated across the board by every settlement. Either through incompetence or malice, they basically attacked the entire island, using something that they, conceivably, couldn't stop.

Now. I know that's not going to happen, because player agency, changing the world isn't easy, yadda yadda...But, and this is just a hunch, there's going to be no DM initiated political NPC blow back towards Minmir over this, when there -absolutely- should be, at the bare minimum. If I turn out to be wrong, I'll be very happy, but I'm not holding my breath.

(This might sound like I'm calling out the players at Minmir. There's no hate directed to my Minmir buddies, you all play Banites -very- well, and I know how much planning and work goes into one of these. Webber, Tom, Zargoth? You're great. Eppi, find some pants.)

This boils down to "Is Arelith a breathing, living, real world" or not. As it stands, when something like this happens, there's very little to no 'change' to the setting, even at the most superficial level. No commoners going 'Why did this happen? It's Bane's fault? Isn't the Queen a Banite? Why did she allow this to occur?", no sudden influx of Tyrrians or Tormites stomping around the island, accusing anyone wearing black of being a bad guy, etc, etc.

• Teams, not solo DM's: I know the crown event got killed in the middle because something in Rainbow's real life required their attention. I hope they are okay. That being said, The Elemental Crown thing just...stopping, was not satisfying. If a large event is planned, an island wide thing, having group that is working together to tell that story allows it to continue if a particular DM needs to drop for whatever reason. This would allow events to reach conclusions that...make narrative sense.

• Scheduling: This needs to happen. I understand mystery and intrigue and 'not everything is on a time table', but it's needed, from a purely communication stance. Watching your player planned event get blasted into non attendance because Benwick Keep suddenly jumped forward in time and is being attacked by a thirty foot tall space cube from Limbo is absolutely heart breaking, especially since there's very little that a player host can do to actually compete with 'The Thing' that is happening.

[chocolatelover]

Everything everyone has said, especially Mymirdos!

1. Fewer server wide massive DM events. They should be few and far between. (I really, really like the Weatherstone event, because no matter how hard I tried, I could never seem to get a piece of the plot action. So, having the weather events be all over, helped everyone feel a little part of the action or even just ignore it if they wanted.) But then the Weatherstone event was very quickly followed by the Plague in Guldorand. and poor Guldorand almost emptied out for a few months.

Seriously, there are calendars for events. DM s should talk to one another and plan their big events carefully. Major DM plots should not overlap so much like this.

2, Different TYPES of DM events. Does it always have to come down to fighting against a DM mob? Someone up there pointed out that players have other skills...perhaps some ancient tome that will stave off the bad guy needs translating or it's a cryptogram or something. ANYTHING to give other players a chance to participate in a way that the'yre level- 30-but-im-not-a-murder-machine can help with.

1. Random DM interventions - these are always fun! Just having the DM pop into some adventure already going on is fun. It's surprising and refreshing, no matter the ending.

2. Move major plot lines around. If Cordor gets one for a month..then a few months later move it to Brog.... then to Andunor...etc...
   And seriously.... a major plot over more than one rl months is just...exhausting. It makes it very heard for players to plan those player run events when you've no idea if it will just get interrupted.

I am not sure how to prevent those players lucky enough to have 8 hours of online time a day getting most of the limelight. It is what it is. But it would sure be nice if a DM could spot another random person to help out in an event....find the missing puzzle piece, cryptic symbol, missing gem...ANYTHING. After two years on the server, I feel merely an observer of very world ending events in which I cannot find a way to participate either AT ALL or without having one of the players with more time take it over.

[Xerah]

This often happens in real life with social issues. There's always something bad happening that needs a voice, but using that voice too much will mean you're not heard anywhere.

There are lots of good suggestions in the post for how events can be adjusted from the DM lead, but here are some things that players can do.:

1. Limit your need to get involved in everything. Yes, there is FOMO but we gotta share the sandbox. Maybe you can't help one area because your focus is on another area. That doesn't mean you don't care about it but you trust the other people to deal with it.

2. Don't react negatively ICly to characters not being there. Don't make anonymous posts about characters who aren't there and "ignored the problem." Don't do this ICly in ongoing roleplay. I don't care if "that's what my character would do" you can still understand that you are working in a system of limitations and being attacked for stepping aside for IC or OOC reasons is a really poor roleplaying hook.

3. Don't react negatively OOCly to not being there; the likelihood that someone was excluding you with malice is low.

4. Think about others who could get involved instead of running to Jon Snow for the 14th time. If someone came to me with something they needed help with, I try to think of the people who I've met recently and if that thing would be something that would mesh with their RP.

[The GrumpyCat]

This often happens in real life with social issues. There's always something bad happening that needs a voice, but using that voice too much will mean you're not heard anywhere.

There are lots of good suggestions in the post for how events can be adjusted from the DM lead, but here are some things that players can do.:

1. Limit your need to get involved in everything. Yes, there is FOMO but we gotta share the sandbox. Maybe you can't help one area because your focus is on another area. That doesn't mean you don't care about it but you trust the other people to deal with it.

2. Don't react negatively ICly to characters not being there. Don't make anonymous posts about characters who aren't there and "ignored the problem." Don't do this ICly in ongoing roleplay. I don't care if "that's what my character would do" you can still understand that you are working in a system of limitations and being attacked for stepping aside for IC or OOC reasons is a really poor roleplaying hook.

3. Don't react negatively OOCly to not being there; the likelihood that someone was excluding you with malice is low.

4. Think about others who could get involved instead of running to Jon Snow for the 14th time. If someone came to me with something they needed help with, I try to think of the people who I've met recently and if that thing would be something that would mesh with their RP.

So these are some absolutly fantastic points, and I'd encourage people to remember them all! It can really help with this sort of burnout.

The points about a lot of DM events being large of late is also valid. Maybe we need fewer sure. I maintain 'some' are good though.

That being said, (and again, not neccesarly disputing that there can be burnout from large events...) if going forward there are far fewer... please keep a few things in mind.

1) Dms cannot always controle the size of events, or how people react to them. Someone can spawn a few rats on the Cordor streets for some lowbe characters to murder, and it can turn into "OMG MASSIVE RAT INVASION THE KING OF RATS HAS RETURNED ALL OF CORDOR WILL BE DEVOURED! SUMMON THE ARCANE TOWER! SUMMON THE RADIANT HEART! THE ISLE IS DUE TO BE DOOOOOMED! DOOOOOOOOMED I TELL YE!'
This works over time as well as numbers. I can say, run an event where pcs help a poor begger with some coin and he talks about the suffering of the slums- wanting just to add a few bits of flavour at atmosphere, and then get innundated with 10 requests of 'WE WANT TO HELP THE POOR!' 'WE'RE ORGANIZING A MEGA GROUP TO MURDER ALL THE GANGS!' 'WE'VE COLLECTED 1000000 UNITS OF STONE TO MAKE AN AMAZING MANSION FOR THEM!' Ect. It's really cool in many ways, I admire it, but following up such threads can turn what was once a tiny flavour quest into a huge mega story, the like of which isn't neccesarly wanted.

2) Small events don't make as big of a splash as big ones. That means they're generally less well known and, honestly? Sometimes less cared about too. Running a big Undead attack event? Gets everyone talking. Everyone discussing about what to do next. Smaller events generally go beneath most peoples radar. That means that it will likely seem to some that 'nothing ever happens' on Arelith. 'The DMs never do anything' ect.

3) It can make things seem a lot more sterile too. Big events can make history books, can change areas, are often things that pcs vividly share and discuss. Of course changes can be made for smaller events too, and good small events can still promote discussion if players are willing, but in my experience often less so.

4) Requests for Big Stuff from players may have to be denied more. We've had a few Big Events that have spawned from player requests, which is awsome, but if we lower the Big Event threshold, then this is less likely to happen,.

5) You all are going to have to come up with more plotline between yourselves to keep politics going. Stuff that'll make the server seem interesting and alive WITHOUT devolving into hurt and bad feelings. I know you guys can do this. But if Dms arn't making big stories for the server, you folk are going to have to find a way to fill that in, or at least those of you that like ongong plotlines/stories.

6) Finally remember that we as DMs are volunteers. Ultimatly we'll run what we feel at least somewhat inspired to run, and also what we're able to. For example - above someone mentioned splitting a team of 30 players up into a group of four. Getting four DMs able and willing to be on at the same time is often very difficult without significant planning before hand. And making sure the groups of players are even? especially when spread across existing areas where other teams can just show up? That's also difficult. Keep in mind that we're only human, and have jobs, responsiblities and hobbies outside the game.

Just to really stress... this isn't to say that the above posters points are invalid or bad or terrible or that we should have constant world ending events all the time ect - I do get the burnout, I really do. But I do feel that they have their place.

[Aeryeris]

Just to react to a few points in Grumpycat's post. They make some excellent remarks regarding the DM-side of the equation. I do have some thoughts on how I think these points could be handled.

1) Dms cannot always controle the size of events, or how people react to them. Someone can spawn a few rats on the Cordor streets for some lowbe characters to murder, and it can turn into "OMG MASSIVE RAT INVASION THE KING OF RATS HAS RETURNED ALL OF CORDOR WILL BE DEVOURED! SUMMON THE ARCANE TOWER! SUMMON THE RADIANT HEART! THE ISLE IS DUE TO BE DOOOOOMED! DOOOOOOOOMED I TELL YE!'
This works over time as well as numbers. I can say, run an event where pcs help a poor begger with some coin and he talks about the suffering of the slums- wanting just to add a few bits of flavour at atmosphere, and then get innundated with 10 requests of 'WE WANT TO HELP THE POOR!' 'WE'RE ORGANIZING A MEGA GROUP TO MURDER ALL THE GANGS!' 'WE'VE COLLECTED 1000000 UNITS OF STONE TO MAKE AN AMAZING MANSION FOR THEM!' Ect. It's really cool in many ways, I admire it, but following up such threads can turn what was once a tiny flavour quest into a huge mega story, the like of which isn't neccesarly wanted.

Certainly, but there is a difference between a small scale event growing because players dynamically get pulled in, and an invasion of undead marching down the Arelith forest, or a city district being completely flooded, or a Weatherstone potentially blowing up rendering the island uninhabitable.

In the first situation characters can easily and reasonably IC decide not get involved. In the other situation (the big doom plot), most players are bending or breaking their character's concept and personality if they stay away when the call for help to save the island comes.

2) Small events don't make as big of a splash as big ones. That means they're generally less well known and, honestly? Sometimes less cared about too. Running a big Undead attack event? Gets everyone talking. Everyone discussing about what to do next. Smaller events generally go beneath most peoples radar. That means that it will likely seem to some that 'nothing ever happens' on Arelith. 'The DMs never do anything' ect.

There's a balance somewhere, and right now it looks like it's not being hit. 'Fewer' does not mean 'none'. But 2024 has been back-to-back, to the point it's very hard for player plots and characters to thrive or grow naturally.

3) It can make things seem a lot more sterile too. Big events can make history books, can change areas, are often things that pcs vividly share and discuss. Of course changes can be made for smaller events too, and good small events can still promote discussion if players are willing, but in my experience often less so.

A breathing reacting world would make things far less sterile. This could be accomplished by more focus on more mundane interactions between DM npcs and players, rather than massively large events. For specific examples of this I refer to Eters' post earlier in the thread.

The large scale plots that should be epic pieces of the history books will not be remembered fondly if people are feeling burn-out.

4) Requests for Big Stuff from players may have to be denied more. We've had a few Big Events that have spawned from player requests, which is awsome, but if we lower the Big Event threshold, then this is less likely to happen,.

Unfortunately, yes. Though perhaps supporting player driven stuff could be prioritized over DM-driven storylines.

5) You all are going to have to come up with more plotline between yourselves to keep politics going. Stuff that'll make the server seem interesting and alive WITHOUT devolving into hurt and bad feelings. I know you guys can do this. But if Dms arn't making big stories for the server, you folk are going to have to find a way to fill that in, or at least those of you that like ongong plotlines/stories.

From experience, for years it felt like this stuff was not supported or even actively discouraged by the DMs. With settlement wars being largely disallowed, with powerful settlement NPCs stepping in to calm tensions and force resolutions instead of letting these conflicts and plots develop.

Perhaps there could be more focus on supporting these plots and making sure they happen in a healthy fashion, without them turning to mass PvP bashing.

[Eyeliner]

I'd enjoy DM run scenarios that felt more like actual Dungeons and Dragons... assembling a reasonably sized party who may not all get along and going on a mission to some little-used part of the server that felt like an adventure. Other servers I've played on have done this with sign ups ahead of time and planned times when it would start and continue, I wonder if that could work here-- you'd have to turn people away of course but maybe effort could be made to rotate players so it's not always the same Arelith superstars.