Lore Master – Elven Armor of Class

[Ruzuke]

My question is, why is LM so special? In what way is this class “balanced” against anything else in the game?

• It can Open Locks
• It can disable traps
• It has UMD
• It gains a lot of feats
• It gains a lot bonus languages
• It makes using scrolls and wands easier (and more powerful?)

A Bard / Shadowdancer cannot open any locks.
However, a 25 Warrior / 5 LM could open every lock in the game, and disable any trap in the game. Speak hidden languages, gain access to the epic necromancer summon if they want, spot all the traps, and possibly investigate traps.

So my question is balance why where does lore master come in?

[Kaeldre]

To put it simply, Fighter 25/ Lm 5 is not ideal and sacrifices pure stats for rp cookies.

Edit: Note that a lot of dips are looking for tumble to boost stats, something which LM doesn't provide. Also, at this point you are looking at a 5 class dip as compared to a 3 class dip. That's a significant difference in class investment.

[Peacewhisper]

You can cross-class open lock/disarm trap, same for tumble. And with the Loremaster's free +1 AC, and the fighter's +1 helmet AC at level 25, you're only really losing out on 1 AC. It's actually more ideal to go 26 fighter/4 loremaster since you'll get an extra +1 AC and +2 to your weapon's enhancement bonus for DR penetration. And I'm tired of pretending that everything Loremaster gives is just "RP cookies" when people are mostly just grabbing +1 AB, +1 AC, +30 HP, etc. Even the epic spell focus abilities it gets as greater secrets have serious implications for PVP. It's just all around the best dip that lets a character do literally everything.

[Halibutthead]

you can get the epic necromancer summon with just a few LM levels? that's news to me. I was under the impression that it was a sub-epic necromancy summon.

it does have a nice skill kit, and the increased efficiency with wands/scrolls is fantastic. but imo, it still competes with a rogue or bard dip for skills. rogue gets locks/traps and tumble, and bard gets spellcraft and tumble. LM gets locks/traps and spellcraft.

a few extra language? great! But they do pretty much nothing in most interactions, and you can learn most of them without using levels. and "hidden languages" are... well, they're not "useless," but since almost nobody speaks them, you may have to go out of your way to make it worthwhile.

you must also burn a feat on skill focus: lore, which is fine for some builds. the hard 16 int requirement is an investment, however.

idk. It's strong, if you build for it. if you didn't, you can net more power out of another class dip that allows less investment.

[Ruzuke]

It is powerful enough to be the third most popular class on the server despite not being a base class. Over 1 and 5 people are a lore master and that is because the pros far outweigh the cons.

[Kythana]

Here we go again.

Can we stop with the LM threads every other day?

Yes, it's a popular class, it gives access to things players like. It's not all powerful, 80 lore is not a free win button. 25/5 Fighter/LM is not a strong build by any stretch of the imagination.

Just stop, please.

[Security_Blanket]

It should be a real class, stretch that 5 level dip class into a proper level 20 prestige class, it is just a dip class that get's little to no RP around the fact that they are a Loremaster. One out of every three characters is a Loremaster and you don't see that as an indicator of a problem?

[TheDoctor]

Restrict LM only to certain classes if you wanna keep it a 5 lvl thing....

or

Make it the actual LM class complete with the actual restrictions.

[Rubricae]

when was the last time someone used loremaster for the necromancy secret

[ElevenOne]

LM is special because is the only prestige class that fits any play stile. If weapon Master worked with bows or spells, their numbers would be higher.

Some reasons LM are so popular:

1) Languages
Do you want a character that can speak certain language?
A) You either spend an award, which you may not have or you may not be able to because the award was used for something else.
B) You either have to get a phrasebook and invest a large amount of time to learn it. (IF it is learnable and the build has enough Int for it)
C) You take the class that gives it (and most likely heavily nerf your build)
D) You take LM levels.

2) Arelith became a "You must have access to spells to buff yourself" (And also the existence of time stop / Mord scrolls)
LM giving access to UMD, having a good boost to Lore (+10 at level 5 and +5 from the feat requirement) means if any build wants to use lore 80 scrolls, this class gives access to that.

3) Gives casters a potential splash without nerfing their CL (and bard song)

4) Some classes do not have a high level cookie/incentive, allowing them to splash. (A.K.A fighters).

5) Loosing loot because it is locked? LM also covers chest skills.

---

Is it LM class itself? Or just all the other mechanics / current meta making this class shine?

At the end of the day, LM bonuses are more aligned towards QoL and RP stuff than "Every META Insta-win PVP must be this class" and gives access to mundane characters to tools to compete against casters.

[Seren]

Is warrior the new base class?

[Ruzuke]

Like many changes, stuff doesn't happen until there's somebody that has the time, the means, and the intent to push for it.
The familiars were left as they were for a long time because other devs had their own projects to tackle, and familiars were a low priority - not to mention, and as evidenced, nerfing the pixie would be met with some community backlash.
Nerfs, however necessary, are largely unpopular, so it's not particularly alluring to update a system that is going to be received negatively.

I can tell you my rationale for pushing for it -
And that is simply that the pixie was too good.
You'd have to shoot yourself in the foot if you wanted to use a pseudodragon, because the option between a funny talking lizard that is only a cosmetic accessory, or a literal pocket rogue? You'd pick the pixie every time unless you wanted to make a statement.

In a RP server, having one mechanical choice that is objectively superior than the others is a design failure, and something that needed to be corrected as a matter of principle.
The consequences that it brings - having to gear up/invest ranks/rely on a friendly rogue - are all acceptable to me.

As an old time mage player, and one that is very fond of familiars, I wanted a system that gave more space for variety and flavor, for thematic choices, rather than those purely mechanical. So this is an agreeable result.
You could also observe "but why is the system not doing X, or also doing Y", and that is a matter of scope - the longer, bigger, and more nuanced a system is to design, it also becomes harder to write, to review, to approve, and to bugtest. I didn't want to code a mechanical monstrosity of a system that would take a small manual to understand, get stuck in review hell for 3 years, or spend the next 5 months bugfixing.

Even with this rather simple system we are seeing a lot of bugs related to language (that I am tackling as I figure why they are happening).

Will this design decision apply to lore master?

About 1 in 5 people take it. While not being a dip class for 1 language was cited for familiar for LM as a dip class it provides.

• 3 Bonus Languages.
• Maxed OL/DD and search
• That plus 10 bonus to sail

As mentioned we are a RP server I am unsure everyone becoming a pocket wizard, master of knowledge, and linguistic expert is solved by this change. I do not see 1/5 of the population playing as scholars leaving me to believe it is purely about the mechanics.

As it was directed to move this question to a thread about Loremasters here it is. Bad design was taken as everyone is taking the class for the utility offered. Yet in the census Loremaster is in the top three of classes picked. It is the dip class everyone takes to be great in everything. The same reason which is why Familiars were changed (as a bad design) (a skill Loremasters now can pickup as well as all utilities with Divination). One of the reasons also of why Familiars require X levels to gain 1 bonus language for balance does not apply to Loremasters.

From the viewpoint it seems as if Lore Masters fits the design decision and I would ask the question (in the proper thread) does the above design decision apply to Lore Masters?