Pirate Ink Removal

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

The inked removal doesn't effect me as a player, as I'm genuinely happy with my pirate rp, but it is a rare occurrence when you have an overflowing ship of sailors these days. Which makes it challenging. Even more so when you do wrangle a crew together only to invest time and coin into helping them level and kit out before they ultimately roll and just disappear. Definitely their choice, and not a bash against any players for doing so, but finding a way to make Sencliff more worth a roleplay investment is my thoughts on ink removal.

Generally, rules like this are built because in the past it was abused. Or it was built in mechanically when the content was added. It would be something that should potentially be changed in the future, in my opinion of course. But seeing a lot of great players drop completely, since their story line has "ended" is disheartening. While if we have the potential for a future story arc, I'm curious if this would alleviate that.
Not to say I don't thinking there shouldn't be a down side to the removal. Actions have consequences and I feel like we can come up with a better one to enhance a story rather then ending it entirely while a person is trying to build off it. As our current approach is generally... Die, or roll your character for the reward before that happens. A m.o.d can be an amazing thing that forces a player to player differently and take action into consideration. But, it also completely changes how someone would play a character.

The outcast tag swap could be an interesting outcome, as a lot of pirates tend to retire down in the UD for more roleplay and safety. But having an option for Guld should be discussed as well, as it is a "free port" and as a neutral city finding a way to make an out for players to go their would be a worthwhile concept. I don't expect a former pirate to end up on the cordorian guards anytime in the future. But the fact we are not allowing the players to work and roleplay out these concepts of story progression at all is my main concern.

Sencliff is lacking many things other settlements have. Example, many boast about the "taxless and lack of government" which may be a boon of its own, but removing settlement functions, also, removes RP. The town guard RP? Doesnt exist. Mayor Rp? Not here!

So what do we get in exchange for this MASSIVE loss in potential rp?,...Nothing

Radiants get a Ring, im sure other factions get things mechanically...

The only thing that my dread ink affords me is to enter the dread estate, and use a ...well....anyways, its the only one on the ISLE and its jus CRAZY that is the BIG SHEBANG for being a dread pirate

We need some settlement function, we need something that makes sencliff more than jus a sail and log off cycle. The pop drops post sail, and most of the time sencliff is jus empty island wide

While I disagree that it needs most of the things you mentioned, since "settlement leaders" and "guard Rp" are only as good as the people involved, and when people put in the work sencliff can be as good as any other settlement without those things (at times better, because of the lack of law structure and hierarchy), I have always thought that the flagship of sencliff should have its captain elected on the same timeline as the other settlement elections.

That's not a commentary on the current owner, I have no idea who they are and they could be super active at the moment, or any owners previously...It's just too important of a piece to sencliff and really sailing as a whole to ever be sitting around stagnant for an extended stretch.

[Ruzuke]

Some of the Guard RP was standing outside a door for six RL Hours while a meeting took place.

My experience is a lot of guard RP is you report what happens and then other people do the rest of the RP. It does provide a lot of social RP. Sencliff also has the Sencliff Defenders a land based, guard RP player guild. The focus on remaining neutral, settling disputes, and was abit of fun.

[-XXX-]

Getting the ink is a serious decision that comes with a lot of IC & OOC consequences. Its removal should be equally serious as the last thing I'd personally want to see is for characters to swap pirate status like outfits:

• The way most characters respond to pirates is virtually indistinguishable from their reaction to outcasts. IDK if this was the original intent, but it's what we get. Making ink removal a casual thing would then likely result in characters frivolously swapping between the villain / hero roles in real time (sort of like the slave system often plays out already).
• Sencliff has a drastically fluctuating population, which can make moving over to wherever the RP's getting traction at the moment all the more appealing. At the same time, I don't believe that doing so with the same character is always a good idea & the ink inhibits just that.
• Sailing is very convenient for leveling. Sencliff's all about accommodating sailing. Taking the ink to lvl up & then removing it to jump in on settlement RP is very similar to -releveling a character while ditching all the QoL & economic perks for PvP optimiziation once they're all maxed out in my book.

[Peacewhisper]

Removing ink should come with a permanent -4 debuff to all physical stats, along with a complete bank and inventory wipe. That should stop people from doing it for mechanical advantages. Considering how easy it is to make literally millions of gold and obtain dozens of masterwork runes and other rare items as a pirate, we shouldn't be letting people do that, have a "redemption arc" then go on to dominate settlements economically with their ill-gotten gains.

[TheDoctor]

Removing ink should come with a permanent -4 debuff to all physical stats, along with a complete bank and inventory wipe. That should stop people from doing it for mechanical advantages. Considering how easy it is to make literally millions of gold and obtain dozens of masterwork runes and other rare items as a pirate, we shouldn't be letting people do that, have a "redemption arc" then go on to dominate settlements economically with their ill-gotten gains.

I dont understand your comment here. Are you saying non-pirates cant make the same kind of coin pirates can? We do have other sailors on arileth that are not pirates whose banks are just as massive.

[Peacewhisper]

Removing ink should come with a permanent -4 debuff to all physical stats, along with a complete bank and inventory wipe. That should stop people from doing it for mechanical advantages. Considering how easy it is to make literally millions of gold and obtain dozens of masterwork runes and other rare items as a pirate, we shouldn't be letting people do that, have a "redemption arc" then go on to dominate settlements economically with their ill-gotten gains.

I dont understand your comment here. Are you saying non-pirates cant make the same kind of coin pirates can? We do have other sailors on arileth that are not pirates whose banks are just as massive.

It's definitely possible but you won't have the ease of access to large experienced crews that you would in Sencliff unless you are already part of one of a select few groups. A new character in Sencliff can go straight to sailing and have a million gold before they reach level 30. It's a lot harder to even get invited to go sailing in settlements. For the record I've played Sencliff pirates and I've went sailing with multiple settlements on other characters. I've enough experience to definitively say that yeah, the Sencliff sailing economy is a whole different beast. And in-game, it is ill-gotten money, if you truly want to claim your character is "redeemed" you can't just keep toting around that 20 million gold worth of treasure you literally stole from innocent people.

[D4wN]

My thoughts here are that you already need to provide evidence to DMs when you want an outcast token. You need to tell them about your evil deeds and people you've taken down or gone after.

Why not the same with redemption stories? Just ask the players to present evidence that they have been legitimately RPing and working on redeeming themselves. Take a % if you want from their Pirate earned treasures and "donate it to the Almshouse". But permanent debuffs is imo way too much of a punishment if you and people around you spent months working on a redemption story. We shouldn't be punishing character development and good RP, we should celebrate it. Isn't that why we're playing these silly little fake characters? To tell stories and develop our own personal stories and try to impact that of others?

[Peacewhisper]

My thoughts here are that you already need to provide evidence to DMs when you want an outcast token. You need to tell them about your evil deeds and people you've taken down or gone after.

Why not the same with redemption stories? Just ask the players to present evidence that they have been legitimately RPing and working on redeeming themselves. Take a % if you want from their Pirate earned treasures and "donate it to the Almshouse". But permanent debuffs is imo way too much of a punishment if you and people around you spent months working on a redemption story. We shouldn't be punishing character development and good RP, we should celebrate it. Isn't that why we're playing these silly little fake characters? To tell stories and develop our own personal stories and try to impact that of others?

Maybe the -4 debuff to all physical stats is too much, but consider we do the same just for druids to reskin their summons to animals. You don't need your millions of gold that you made or your character's stats optimized to tell a good story. Its just a lot easier for me to take "redeemed" characters seriously when they are willing to give up their power and their wealth that they gained through objectively evil means.

[Dessin]

My idea or proposal

We should have INK PATHS, a way for us to entice players to stay for longer than 30

Similiar to how Radiants get RING UPGRADES

Smuggler, Reaver, etc, these paths provide unique long term goals for pirates, and unique bonuses for being a pirate, therefor making a pirate not a complete loss

something like, smuggler letting you do trade writs still, something, so its not a total loss of all settlement play

Furthermore having smuggling impact the local economy somehow etc

It's easy for sencliff to simply just be ignored as pirates are really only relevant at sea , it'd be nice to see variety of interactions that draw such people closer to the cities for these kinda of things would create a bit of zest doing these things. Crimes etc

Both in impact and overall enjoy ment

It also gives guards and settlements one more thing to do or watch for and manage there fire generation of rp and an extra element of controlling crime for the sake of saving your local economy

Could even do things where ship rentals cost more or something if a given power dominated the seas etc reflecting the increase in insurance premium due to pirate activity

Basically this would replace the lack of settlement features, and replace it with anti settlement features which would reflect pirates as a whole I suppose

This tangible impact gives pirates a leg to stand on when it comes to negotiations and could even force them to deal and wheel with criminals if it got to bad and come to the table but right now sencliff lacks true impact other than pvp

[Dessin]

To flesh it out imagine 3 paths

Smuggler, allows you to do trade writs despite being a pirate

Reaver, more cargo from downing ships

Slaver, can board slave ships and steal their slaves, or enalave NPC that is on sandbanks and what not and count them as cargo when selling to sencliff

More ideas welcome

[Cthuletta]

I'm of the mindset that the MOD thing is there to prevent too many redemption stories.
Just like getting the Outcast mark if you don't create one from the start is hard, a true 'redemption' from Outcast or Pirate should probably be even harder just given the subject matter. Goodly folks are a lot less likely to forgive than evil ones are to accept some new murderer in their midst. Even then, it sometimes doesn't really work out that well!

If there wasn't such a deterrent there, you'd probably see characters who are newly "redeemed" every other week, making the story there a lot less important/interesting/meaningful. Just -remaking as someone mentioned earlier in this thread completely negates that whole story to begin with.

That all said, I do agree Sencliff is lacking when it comes to being a roleplay hub. It feels like a psuedo-settlement, almost like Greyhammer? Outcasts don't really have this issue, but a lot of pirates I notice end up in Andunor or Guldorand to find people to play with and get involved in things outside of sailing which you can do just about anywhere. Taking that away probably won't revive Sencliff into being more active, I imagine more people would just move onto new characters entirely. With a huff!
I think some kind of settlement mechanic in Sencliff, maybe not a Chancellor or Mayor but something similar with an active force of Sencliff Pirate-Code Keepers or something like that will help breathe life into it. As it stands, characters can't do much to make changes in Sencliff in our Persistent World.

[DM Nixie]

My thoughts here are that you already need to provide evidence to DMs when you want an outcast token. You need to tell them about your evil deeds and people you've taken down or gone after.

Why not the same with redemption stories? Just ask the players to present evidence that they have been legitimately RPing and working on redeeming themselves.

This is something we already do.

If you want your character's pirate ink or outcast token removed, you do have to submit an application detailing how your character has changed and redeemed themselves to justify their change in status. It's not automatic approval upon request. Redemption for both outcasts and pirates, with very few exceptions, e.g. very new characters who haven't done much of anything, comes with a MoD.

[Ruzuke]

My thoughts here are that you already need to provide evidence to DMs when you want an outcast token. You need to tell them about your evil deeds and people you've taken down or gone after.

Why not the same with redemption stories? Just ask the players to present evidence that they have been legitimately RPing and working on redeeming themselves.

This is something we already do.

If you want your character's pirate ink or outcast token removed, you do have to submit an application detailing how your character has changed and redeemed themselves to justify their change in status. It's not automatic approval upon request. Redemption for both outcasts and pirates, with very few exceptions, e.g. very new characters who haven't done much of anything, comes with a MoD.

Would it be possible to move from Pirate to Outcast rather than Pirate to MoD?

[Dessin]

I'm of the mindset that the MOD thing is there to prevent too many redemption stories.
Just like getting the Outcast mark if you don't create one from the start is hard, a true 'redemption' from Outcast or Pirate should probably be even harder just given the subject matter. Goodly folks are a lot less likely to forgive than evil ones are to accept some new murderer in their midst. Even then, it sometimes doesn't really work out that well!

If there wasn't such a deterrent there, you'd probably see characters who are newly "redeemed" every other week, making the story there a lot less important/interesting/meaningful. Just -remaking as someone mentioned earlier in this thread completely negates that whole story to begin with.

That all said, I do agree Sencliff is lacking when it comes to being a roleplay hub. It feels like a psuedo-settlement, almost like Greyhammer? Outcasts don't really have this issue, but a lot of pirates I notice end up in Andunor or Guldorand to find people to play with and get involved in things outside of sailing which you can do just about anywhere. Taking that away probably won't revive Sencliff into being more active, I imagine more people would just move onto new characters entirely. With a huff!
I think some kind of settlement mechanic in Sencliff, maybe not a Chancellor or Mayor but something similar with an active force of Sencliff Pirate-Code Keepers or something like that will help breathe life into it. As it stands, characters can't do much to make changes in Sencliff in our Persistent World.

Sencliff has history of being a estate built for nobles they could easily give them a single vote like Puerto Rico. Or like I was saying some kind of interactivity between settlements such as allowing smuggling and it effecting local economy etc

Would make sencliff not just sailing, but smuggling, and other black market things. With viable impact and anti settlement mechanics

Other settlement try to build up
Pirates should be able to do things to tear it down aka anti settlement features that put strain economic. Higher ship prices, lower sales prices, due to over saturation of low cost goods driving prices down aka smuggled goods

Hell could even be a swing vote

Might make corrupt politicians come to the table with sencliff

I just want more interesting Interactions

[Ping14]

Would it be possible to move from Pirate to Outcast rather than Pirate to MoD?

The setting of Sencliff clearly depicts that traitors will be killed. The several signs along with several hangings, the tattler's wall, NPC dialogues. I think MOD is given to respect this mood set by the initial choice of being a pirate.

If there's no MoD, turning coats would be easy as mechanically, theres no consequences. It would cheapen the mood set initially on Sencliff.

The DMs made it clear that such a jump from pirate to outcast can be made, and the removal of ink is also done, but must be DM facilitated.

This is something we already do.

Redemption for both outcasts and pirates, with very few exceptions, e.g. very new characters who haven't done much of anything, comes with a MoD.

[D4wN]

My thoughts here are that you already need to provide evidence to DMs when you want an outcast token. You need to tell them about your evil deeds and people you've taken down or gone after.

Why not the same with redemption stories? Just ask the players to present evidence that they have been legitimately RPing and working on redeeming themselves.

This is something we already do.

If you want your character's pirate ink or outcast token removed, you do have to submit an application detailing how your character has changed and redeemed themselves to justify their change in status. It's not automatic approval upon request. Redemption for both outcasts and pirates, with very few exceptions, e.g. very new characters who haven't done much of anything, comes with a MoD.

I know it can be done. But my point in this thread has been that I think it is silly that we punish people for good RP and natural character development/progression. If someone can prove they put in the effort to be redeemed and are legit, then why give them an MoD? We need to stop punishing RP and celebrate it. I honestly don't believe it would be that hard to see the difference between people who have genuinely worked on this and people who are just doing it for the mechanical benefits. Give these people a 'traitor' token to show they turned their backs on their former 'allies' and call it a day. The traitor token should create even more RP. I'd personally love to have a tag of Chainbreaker to show that my character fought against the slave trade and Andunor's core income stream. If people change sides, we can show something visible for that, no need to give them an MoD. But even without the 'traitor' tag, I genuinely don't even understand the logic of deciding that a Pirate or Outcast should be handed an MoD if they've been spending 3-6 months doing a redemption story.

[D4wN]

If there's no MoD, turning coats would be easy as mechanically, theres no consequences. It would cheapen the mood set initially on Sencliff.

I'm of the opinion that consequences should come in the form of RP not mechanics. If I chainbreak and then go hang out in Andunor and/or subsequently start taking slaves myself, that should be addressed by a DM. If I turn my back on my fellow pirates, get my ink removed and subsequently still hang out in their local bar, that should be addressed by a DM. If I redeem myself as an outcast and still hang out in the Hub breaking bread with Drow and Monsters, that should be addressed by a DM.

But in general I would expect to be hated/hunted by slavers as a chainbreaker, have pirates wanting to hang me for betraying them or have Andunor's affected people hunt me down for betraying them to the surface as an outcast. This RP needs to come from players.

We have it the wrong way around right now and right now there's a lot of silly tolerance being allowed for people who've consistently proven they switch sides as easily as flicking through the pages of a magazine.

[Ping14]

I'm of the opinion that consequences should come in the form of RP not mechanics. If I chainbreak and then go hang out in Andunor and/or subsequently start taking slaves myself, that should be addressed by a DM. If I turn my back on my fellow pirates, get my ink removed and subsequently still hang out in their local bar, that should be addressed by a DM. If I redeem myself as an outcast and still hang out in the Hub breaking bread with Drow and Monsters, that should be addressed by a DM.

We have it the wrong way around rn.

This is a personal opinion of mine:

Game Mechanics are forcing elements of the game. If the mood is set initially that traitors would be killed, MoD is one way to set that mood. You as a player is also afraid, not just your character, to be considered a traitor among pirates. Hostility->PVP is also a forcing mechanic, you as a player now know you're going to get beat up if you don't pull off something quick- either by conversation or action initiative.

MOD (not to be confused with Mark of Despair/Disaster), as I see it, is not a punishment. Death is a part of RP. You get the roll chance when you die at the 10th time. You have 9 out of 10 deaths to make the ending that you wanted. The last one death you will have no control of unless it matches with your planned ending of a story. Its not that bad unless you're getting griefed badly. 72 hours per faction kill -> you have atleast 30 real life days even if you get killed that often. But currently, death by PVP in MOD isn't automated- maybe an improvement on this avenue when handing this out for such player (or maybe a new tag, that is PVP focused deaths). And I know, this thrill of the unknown ending is not for everyone.

[Peacewhisper]

Arelith isn't One Piece where pirates are heroes who go around rescuing princesses and saving kingdoms. Pirates here are very bad scummy guys who ally with drow and necromancers and demon worshippers and do actual pirate things like pillaging and making people walk the plank. Characters being able to go from Dread Pirate to Chancellor of Cordor or Most Well-Behaved Paladin so easily just cheapens the setting for everyone. If you want to RP Cordor politics or the Radiant Heart's crusade so badly, make a new character for that.

Sencliff pirates really have it quite nice as it is leveling and making money. Greenhorns can already do writs in and around settlements unnoticed, ranking up to Dread Pirate actually takes effort so its not even that restrictive until you make a conscious decision to do nearly every pirate writ. There are always nice quarters available, and people around to sail with. So I don't think making it easy for pirates to remove ink is really needed, it would probably be bad for the server by cheapening the whole pirate feel even further. If anything we need to give pirate characters incentive to stay in Sencliff and more sailing content that everyone can enjoy.

[D4wN]

I will highlight that I do not think redemption arcs should be easy and cheap nor do I think it should be a common thing. It should be very rare to experience actual redemption stories. If you get 10 Pirates coming to you every month with a sob story on how they're just misunderstood criminals who raid, pillage and kill, then it definitely cheapens the whole concept. Redemption stories should require a lot of time and effort from many people involved. For someone to go from being a pirate working with Andunor and slavers etc. to Chancellor, Warden, Commander of the Guard, etc etc. in a year is not okay. It should be challenging and difficult and they should be under heavy scrutiny and judgement. An MoD is used as a punishment unless you freely choose it. I think to get one because you spent the past however many RL months working on your character to be a better person, is too harsh as it forces you to roll your character against your will.

Maybe there should simply be more scrutiny on these stories to validate they are legit and make it as difficult for someone to get rid of a Pirate/Outcast mark as it is to get them. Maybe a DM could even hunt the player down several times with a bunch of Pirate/Slaver/Monster NPCs to signify the impact of them being a turncoat if that adds anything to it. I'm simply not a fan of the enforced MOD punishments as it goes directly against the notion to choose when you roll your character. If someone is causing issues like repeatedly not taking death seriously, not respecting the setting etc, they should get coaching first. And if that doesn't improve anything, maybe force them on a nice vacation from Arelith for a while.

Arelith isn't One Piece where pirates are heroes who go around rescuing princesses and saving kingdoms.

This resonates so well with me because this keeps happening time and time again. I hear so often from Pirates that they're just pirates because "they want to be free and do whatever they want". I do not think they truly understand what it means to be a Pirate and how they are expected to act in this setting. There are tons of wannabe Robin Hood pirates.

I think in this instance there is a clear repeating problem. That despite the dialogue warning when taking a tattoo, people do not understand the gravity of their choice from an IC consequence perspective. Perhaps some words could be shared here from DMs on what's actually expected from Pirates because this behavior has happened repeatedly for a great many years and been tolerated. Or perhaps that is intentional and everyone reacting to Pirates being the big bad (despite their actions) is not okay? Either way, some direction, transparency and communication may be warranted here.

If anything we need to give pirate characters incentive to stay in Sencliff and more sailing content that everyone can enjoy.

I think you have a lot of merit in this comment as well. There must be a reason Pirate players seek out Settlements to try and RP in and join their factions. And I could guess the reason. Every time I step foot in Sencliff it's abandoned. People will naturally seek up RP hubs, and in my experience, Sencliff is rarely that. I have seen short periods where a few leaders are actively doing things and organising events and things like that. But then it always dies again. If I were to play a Pirate, I'd be bored out of my brain. So there should be an incentive as well as proper communication on setting expectations so Pirates can be Pirates as they're meant to be. Make Sencliff a fun place to be in, make it active. How? I dunno. Maybe host a few DM events for them there to attract more players. Or have an honest chat with Pirate leaders who own one of the big ships and never do anything with them.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Arelith isn't One Piece where pirates are heroes who go around rescuing princesses and saving kingdoms.

This resonates so well with me because this keeps happening time and time again. I hear so often from Pirates that they're just pirates because "they want to be free and do whatever they want". I do not think they truly understand what it means to be a Pirate and how they are expected to act in this setting. There are tons of wannabe Robin Hood pirates.

I think in this instance there is a clear repeating problem. That despite the dialogue warning when taking a tattoo, people do not understand the gravity of their choice from an IC consequence perspective. Perhaps some words could be shared here from DMs on what's actually expected from Pirates because this behavior has happened repeatedly for a great many years and been tolerated. Or perhaps that is intentional and everyone reacting to Pirates being the big bad (despite their actions) is not okay? Either way, some direction, transparency and communication may be warranted here.

I feel like this is wrong on two accounts.

First and foremost, my exists for the sake of this argument dagon serving pirate would likely feed you that line no matter what the actual truth is.

Second, and perhaps truly the foremost issue, there is room for a lot of different types of pirates on Sencliff, and the reality is that they shouldn't all be in a box. They wouldn't allow for neutral pirates if this wasn't meant to be the case. But reality and perception are the fun things to play with on arelith, and that flexibility is a little brilliant. What I mean by that is its perfectly legit for a Cordorian guard for an easy example to put all the pirates in a box, because his perception doesn't match the reality. And while you hope that that perception is the common perception of all non pirates, it does leave some wiggle room for pirates to team up with settlements to achieve common goals. It also leaves room for turmoil between pirate groups, because if the really evil guys are bringing down heat on the not so evil guys that's going to piss off the later. And these are the types of things that make this game a game, so to me at least the design is close to perfect as is. Players do what players do, so how it plays out can sometimes present a different result, but the design is there.

Now, one might ask "Babylon, if you believe what you wrote above, why are you against pirate redemption stories?", and the truth is that history tells us that it would be too easy for what it's meant to be. Players will just accept the redeemed at face value (especially if theres an ooc connection), and the common perception I mentioned above will go by the wayside because it's impossible for the npcs to constantly react appropriately. And while one can convince themselves that their former pirate who is now chancellor of Cordor or something equally as silly had this epic redemption story, odds are most people are going to view that character as a bit of a joke. Whether or not that's a thing that should matter is debatable, which is why I said earlier in the thread that this objection is not for me but for the would-be redeemed pirate, but I know personally I never want to be that guy that couldn't let go when the story was over and my opinion spawns from there. So, while redemption stories can be great, neutral pirates who lean toward good over time can be great, ect. ect. I just fully believe that when it gets to the point where sencliff is no longer a place for that character that story is over.

[Ruzuke]

I am going to agree with Babylon now. It is a logical argument, and the last line strikes true to me. It is one of the very few places where surface evil can exist and people can and do plan to do bad things.

[D4wN]

Arelith isn't One Piece where pirates are heroes who go around rescuing princesses and saving kingdoms.

This resonates so well with me because this keeps happening time and time again. I hear so often from Pirates that they're just pirates because "they want to be free and do whatever they want". I do not think they truly understand what it means to be a Pirate and how they are expected to act in this setting. There are tons of wannabe Robin Hood pirates.

I think in this instance there is a clear repeating problem. That despite the dialogue warning when taking a tattoo, people do not understand the gravity of their choice from an IC consequence perspective. Perhaps some words could be shared here from DMs on what's actually expected from Pirates because this behavior has happened repeatedly for a great many years and been tolerated. Or perhaps that is intentional and everyone reacting to Pirates being the big bad (despite their actions) is not okay? Either way, some direction, transparency and communication may be warranted here.

First and foremost, my exists for the sake of this argument dagon serving pirate would likely feed you that line no matter what the actual truth is.

I do not understand what you mean by this. Sorry.

Second, and perhaps truly the foremost issue, there is room for a lot of different types of pirates on Sencliff, and the reality is that they shouldn't all be in a box. They wouldn't allow for neutral pirates if this wasn't meant to be the case. But reality and perception are the fun things to play with on arelith, and that flexibility is a little brilliant. What I mean by that is its perfectly legit for a Cordorian guard for an easy example to put all the pirates in a box, because his perception doesn't match the reality. And while you hope that that perception is the common perception of all non pirates, it does leave some wiggle room for pirates to team up with settlements to achieve common goals. It also leaves room for turmoil between pirate groups, because if the really evil guys are bringing down heat on the not so evil guys that's going to piss off the later. And these are the types of things that make this game a game, so to me at least the design is close to perfect as is. Players do what players do, so how it plays out can sometimes present a different result, but the design is there.

I think it's important to keep in mind that the swashbuckling pirate Robin Hood types is an extreme example as are the One Piece Pirates. And while you, as a Pirate, might not be harr-harr evil, you're spending all your time hanging out with those sorts of people and enabling them. I have seen less than a handful of people who've actually actively taken a stance against their own to try and stop that and change Sencliff to the truly neutral place it has been every now and then.

Imagine if I go and have tea every day in the Hub with Andunorians, go do writs with them, sail with them. And then wonder why people are mad at me since I'm not an Andunorian citizen. I would find it very logical that people would be upset with me doing that. In these instance you really are guilty by association when you have extreme groups doing extreme things. You can't claim neutrality in war and be friendly to all sides when both sides are trying to kill each other.

Now, one might ask "Babylon, if you believe what you wrote above, why are you against pirate redemption stories?", and the truth is that history tells us that it would be too easy for what it's meant to be. Players will just accept the redeemed at face value (especially if theres an ooc connection), and the common perception I mentioned above will go by the wayside because it's impossible for the npcs to constantly react appropriately. And while one can convince themselves that their former pirate who is now chancellor of Cordor or something equally as silly had this epic redemption story, odds are most people are going to view that character as a bit of a joke. Whether or not that's a thing that should matter is debatable, which is why I said earlier in the thread that this objection is not for me but for the would-be redeemed pirate, but I know personally I never want to be that guy that couldn't let go when the story was over and my opinion spawns from there. So, while redemption stories can be great, neutral pirates who lean toward good over time can be great, ect. ect. I just fully believe that when it gets to the point where sencliff is no longer a place for that character that story is over.

I do think redemption stories are okay. But I want to reiterate again, they shouldn't be easy or quick and there also shouldn't be a promise of guaranteed success. And I agree with you that a lot of people will do this for OOC connections and relationships/reasons. That bothers me too. But if it's genuine? The person put in a lot of effort? I want to believe that it would be possible to validate that.

[Whosdis]

My thoughts here are that you already need to provide evidence to DMs when you want an outcast token. You need to tell them about your evil deeds and people you've taken down or gone after.

Why not the same with redemption stories? Just ask the players to present evidence that they have been legitimately RPing and working on redeeming themselves.

This is something we already do.

If you want your character's pirate ink or outcast token removed, you do have to submit an application detailing how your character has changed and redeemed themselves to justify their change in status. It's not automatic approval upon request. Redemption for both outcasts and pirates, with very few exceptions, e.g. very new characters who haven't done much of anything, comes with a MoD.

I know it can be done. But my point in this thread has been that I think it is silly that we punish people for good RP and natural character development/progression. If someone can prove they put in the effort to be redeemed and are legit, then why give them an MoD? We need to stop punishing RP and celebrate it. I honestly don't believe it would be that hard to see the difference between people who have genuinely worked on this and people who are just doing it for the mechanical benefits. Give these people a 'traitor' token to show they turned their backs on their former 'allies' and call it a day. The traitor token should create even more RP. I'd personally love to have a tag of Chainbreaker to show that my character fought against the slave trade and Andunor's core income stream. If people change sides, we can show something visible for that, no need to give them an MoD. But even without the 'traitor' tag, I genuinely don't even understand the logic of deciding that a Pirate or Outcast should be handed an MoD if they've been spending 3-6 months doing a redemption story.

Big agree on this.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Just going to do numbers to make it easy and you had three responses.

1) I meant that just because thats the line you are fed ic doesn't mean thats what the pirate actually is.

2) I think everything you wrote is 100% a legitimate ic perspective of pirates, and I wish 99% of the surface settlement -characters- felt the same way. I just don't think that's all pirates can be in reality. A quick off the cuff story line for a pirate by circumstance rather than choice to illustrate my point-

"Lord David Muckitymuck of Amn, framed for the murder of his father and the lord of house Muckitmuck, narrowly escaped his hanging after being convicted for the crime. Having no other choice, he has taken up with pirates to exact his revenge on the rival house that actually killed his father and set him up to be the fall guy."

This guy is probably not evil, but he's certainly making room for evil acts to suit his own ends. A perfect neutral character. He's also not in it for the mayhem and murder, he has a clear goal and he's just using the murderous and mayhem...ius? to achieve his ultimate goal. And it also sounds like a pretty interesting angle to tell a story from, at least to me.

Now, I don't know what one piece is, outside of it having a card game I am often told to check out as a mtg player feeling more and more disenfranchised from the game I love, but if it's a Disney like pirate I agree it probably has no place. But that's more because Disney type characters really have no place on arelith more than an alignment concern, we tend to like our fantasy to slant toward the realistic oxymoron or no.

3) Like I said, I have no problem with redemption stories, I think they can be great. I just think you are shooting what could have been a good character in the foot by not riding off into the sunset once said redemption has been achieved. Your character has outlived its story and is now just a giant rock in the middle of whatever settlement you settle in that everyone has to either interact with their past or simply walk around.

This is not something that's unique to pirate redemption mind you, that's just the context of this thread.