Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

Feedback relating to the Classes, Spells and General Mechanics of Arelith.


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But Will It Blend
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Re: Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

Post by But Will It Blend »

godhand- wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2025 8:09 am

people talk poop on specialists wizards when transmutation wizards outperform spellswords whilst simultaneously retaining access to summons.

the real joke is sorcerer. although i've posted about that before.
(Divine DIP is not as good as anyone says it is. The numbers don't lie. Noone plays one. If it was OP strong people would play it - 1.7% of 6000 active characters are sorcerer - so 90 people play a sorcerer)

Yeah all my testing here has been "We have Spellsword at home" only the spellsword is transmutation wizard and it's trash. I could -maybe- se something working with an arcane archer. Maybe.

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A MAN DRUNK ON POWER
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Re: Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

Post by A MAN DRUNK ON POWER »

Paint wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2025 10:54 am
godhand- wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2025 8:09 am

people talk poop on specialists wizards when transmutation wizards outperform spellswords whilst simultaneously retaining access to summons.

I'm gonna need an explanation for this one, because we've been trying to crack the formula for years here. In what ways does a transmutation wizard outperform a spellsword?

Transmutation specialists get +8 on their first casting of a zoo spell with ESF: Trans, because it's auto-maximized and has +3 to it, so you cast it once and get +8 immediately.

As a result, a trans specialist wizard can get +12 to all 3 of their physical stats quite easily, especially with Tenser's. Also while having +12 INT.

You get 4 APR, and +2 AB (or +3 if you're pure), boku bonus HP, and this basically means you are not actually terrible at melee, especially if you take some martial feats like Epic Weapon Focus. If you go 4 fighter, you get epic weapon specialization, too, and still have 29 caster levels (which means you won't be dispelled because you can get your dispel resistance to 30 by just taking Arcane Defense: Abj.)

And yet, unlike a spellsword, you get 9th level spells, and access to epic spells. Spellswords do not get epic magic. They do not get Epic Mage Armor, or Hellball, or Planar Conduit (although transmutation specialists don't have Planar Conduit either). They have a nerfed form of Timestop.

If you play a transmutation specialist like a spellsword (not the Arelith form, but the more generic concept of "a spellsword"), you can kinda shred.

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Re: Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

Post by Xerah »

That was the original plan of it to compete before spellsword became its own class, but I still would trust Paint's assessment that it needs some work.

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Re: Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

Post by A MAN DRUNK ON POWER »

I definitely think wizard is stronger than most players but I'd agree there need to be some tweaks (and all of these go for sorcerer too, essentially).

My biggest gripes/suggestions/ideas:

  • let them have the +2 CON ioun stone (the idea of making pure wizards not have a real use case for ioun stones, because they lack UMD and are locked into the +2 INT one which is near worthless for them, is absolutely insane to me, and kinda shits on people who dare play a pure wizard, which should be encouraged rather than discouraged)

  • infinicasting and/or arcane flux needs major buffing in some fashion, cloistered clerics have an INSANE edge here, the disparity is actually bonkers.

  • Specialists need a little tiny bit extra to make it worthwhile. Especially the ones that lose conjuration. You lose every summon worth talking about, and also Greater Mage Armor and a bunch of useful AoE spells like Cloudkill and Acid Fog (these are some of the best spells in the game if you understand how to play wizard).

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Re: Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

Post by -XXX- »

A MAN DRUNK ON POWER wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 10:31 pm

You lose every summon worth talking about

Can't Abju and Evo specialists take MDust?

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Re: Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

Post by A MAN DRUNK ON POWER »

-XXX- wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 11:32 pm
A MAN DRUNK ON POWER wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 10:31 pm

You lose every summon worth talking about

Can't Abju and Evo specialists take MDust?

Yes but that's incredibly RP limiting. It's not really fair to consider that a key component in a specialist wizard's repertoire. Undead animator RP is very, very specific - requiring almost half of the specialist options to either have no summons, or be undead animators, when they aren't even necromancy specialists (so really, half of all specialties, counting necromancy), is just an awful state of things.

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Re: Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

Post by Paint »

-XXX- wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 11:32 pm
A MAN DRUNK ON POWER wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 10:31 pm

You lose every summon worth talking about

Can't Abju and Evo specialists take MDust?

I've complained about this ten thousand times, but the summary of my complaint is that the act of Animation is so polarizing in roleplay that the actual identity you're going for gets subsumed by it. If you're an evocation specialist, but you animate, you're not an evocation specialist. You're an animator. This is frustrating, because there's no pretty okay but-less good option for these specializations to take, and it'd be really simple to give them one, but it's not on the to-do list.

A MAN DRUNK ON POWER wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 6:20 pm

Transmutation specialists get +8 on their first casting of a zoo spell with ESF: Trans, because it's auto-maximized and has +3 to it, so you cast it once and get +8 immediately.

As a result, a trans specialist wizard can get +12 to all 3 of their physical stats quite easily, especially with Tenser's. Also while having +12 INT.

You get 4 APR, and +2 AB (or +3 if you're pure), boku bonus HP, and this basically means you are not actually terrible at melee, especially if you take some martial feats like Epic Weapon Focus. If you go 4 fighter, you get epic weapon specialization, too, and still have 29 caster levels (which means you won't be dispelled because you can get your dispel resistance to 30 by just taking Arcane Defense: Abj.)

And yet, unlike a spellsword, you get 9th level spells, and access to epic spells. Spellswords do not get epic magic. They do not get Epic Mage Armor, or Hellball, or Planar Conduit (although transmutation specialists don't have Planar Conduit either). They have a nerfed form of Timestop.

If you play a transmutation specialist like a spellsword (not the Arelith form, but the more generic concept of "a spellsword"), you can kinda shred.

Even if we ignore the fact that all of that is still very dispellable at CL 30 v dispels -- because it is, and it will happen -- the reason trans spec wizard is worse than spellsword is that you can't cast while putting up martial pressure, and a spellsword can. The damage pressure that spellsword can put out while throwing in its weaker spells is precisely why it's so much scarier than a wizard ever could be. Additionally, the gearing on a spellsword means you're hitting the same thresholds. As someone who's played a couple of transmutation spec wizards and compared it against other gishes, the damage pressure isn't there, it's clumsy, and access to 9th level spells just doesn't make up for it. There's too many tradeoffs you have to make, and against a canny opponent, they're going to exploit just how cumbersome it is.

This is without getting into the stupid math of the soft AB cap, which means that if a trans spec wizard comes up against an opponent they can't reliably hit, they're screwed, because truestrike potions do nothing for them. This is both a PVE and PVP consideration, as I was forced to figure out.

I'd like it if trans spec wizard could feel like a wizard gish, but it simply can't. One of the things I love about classes like, say, Cleric, is that it's so aggressively versatile that you can fill almost any role with it, and it still feels like playing a cleric. I'd really like to see other classes get the same treatment, because it's fun when you retain a unique identity, but have a lot of flexibility for an expression of your playstyle, and the role that you want to fill.

Remarkably, however, I do often wonder if a trans-spec wizard couldn't serve as an able tank, specifically because of that bonus HP. It would require micromanaging your tenser's uptime, which sounds like a pain in the butt, but there is an avenue to explore there. But as far as damage goes? You just don't have it. Compared to a SS that can dump out an insane amount of APR in a single turn between its TS and maelstrom, I'm much more afraid of the latter than the former.

Edit:
For every transmutation spec wizard who has chugged a TS pot and looked on their character sheet to see like, +70 or something, a word of caution. Hit something, then look at the combat log. You'll be very disappointed.

Edit 2:
I am aware that you can cast from scrolls and wands and potions while you've got Tenser's up. I- really shouldn't have to explain why that's a huge action economy loss.

Edit A Million:
None of this is supposed to be salt. Kalopsia and the team have said they don't want Trans spec wizard competing with SS's identity, and I respect that, even if it's not the choice I'd make.

Last edited by Paint on Sun Apr 27, 2025 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
But Will It Blend
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Re: Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

Post by But Will It Blend »

See Also: Specialist wizards actually get a worse % chance of triggering arcane surge than a spellsword. Figure that one out.

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Re: Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

Post by Ping14 »

There's a new stuff in the wiki that I noticed just now:

Arelith Wiki wrote:

Successful saving throws against spells cast by player characters apply temporary penalties to saving throws with the same descriptor:

This penalty stacks over multiple casts and lasts for 3 rounds. Successful saving throws against spells with the same descriptor refresh the duration.
The amount depends on the spell's innate level:
2 for spells of innate levels 7 and above, and
1 for spells of innate levels 4 to 6.
Weaker spells do not increase the penalty, but refresh its duration.

But I don't think this is Wiz/Sorc exclusive.

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Re: Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

Post by Naghast »

Ping14 wrote: Sun Apr 27, 2025 7:06 am

There's a new stuff in the wiki that I noticed just now:

Arelith Wiki wrote:

Successful saving throws against spells cast by player characters apply temporary penalties to saving throws with the same descriptor:

This penalty stacks over multiple casts and lasts for 3 rounds. Successful saving throws against spells with the same descriptor refresh the duration.
The amount depends on the spell's innate level:
2 for spells of innate levels 7 and above, and
1 for spells of innate levels 4 to 6.
Weaker spells do not increase the penalty, but refresh its duration.

But I don't think this is Wiz/Sorc exclusive.

It is not Wiz/Sorc exclusive. Casters that can actually SPAM spells over and over and over benefit a bit more from this mechanic, than those who can only throw a spell once or twice.

Paint wrote: Sun Apr 27, 2025 3:55 am

Remarkably, however, I do often wonder if a trans-spec wizard couldn't serve as an able tank, specifically because of that bonus HP. It would require micromanaging your tenser's uptime, which sounds like a pain in the butt, but there is an avenue to explore there. But as far as damage goes? You just don't have it. Compared to a SS that can dump out an insane amount of APR in a single turn between its TS and maelstrom, I'm much more afraid of the latter than the former.

From my experience? A 60 ac transmutation specialist wizard with 50% concealment on top DOES serve as a decent PVE tank in a group, guarding the group's weaponmaster. All of those defenses on top of constantly refreshable (Well, on a 90 second cooldown) 180 temporary hp bubble is strong for that purpose.

Temp hp from tensers also does serve as a safety net when you want to use a scroll but want to not die in the process. I did use it for that effectively several times.

But the AB is... Average at best, and the damage is abysmal.
(No i did not make a wizard/weaponmaster on live. At this rate i probably will, though.)

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Re: Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

Post by -XXX- »

A MAN DRUNK ON POWER wrote: Sun Apr 27, 2025 1:58 am

Yes but that's incredibly RP limiting. It's not really fair to consider that a key component in a specialist wizard's repertoire. Undead animator RP is very, very specific - requiring almost half of the specialist options to either have no summons, or be undead animators, when they aren't even necromancy specialists (so really, half of all specialties, counting necromancy), is just an awful state of things.

Paint wrote: Sun Apr 27, 2025 3:55 am

I've complained about this ten thousand times, but the summary of my complaint is that the act of Animation is so polarizing in roleplay that the actual identity you're going for gets subsumed by it. If you're an evocation specialist, but you animate, you're not an evocation specialist. You're an animator. This is frustrating, because there's no pretty okay but-less good option for these specializations to take, and it'd be really simple to give them one, but it's not on the to-do list.

IMO there's a lot wrong with wiz specialists, but I wouldn't count getting kicked out of Cordor for using an Evo specialist to their full potential among them.
The impact of RP on overal gameplay experience doesn't really speak much to mechanical balance. A class doesn't abruptly become unplayable only because it doesn't lend itself toward loitering in Cordor/Myon/RH style of RP.

Btw. Conju being prohibited to HALF of the wizard specialist options is a hyperbole: https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Wizard#Specialists
It's 2 out of 8 (Abju and Evo specifically)

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Re: Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

Post by Naghast »

-XXX- wrote: Sun Apr 27, 2025 8:29 am
A MAN DRUNK ON POWER wrote: Sun Apr 27, 2025 1:58 am

Yes but that's incredibly RP limiting. It's not really fair to consider that a key component in a specialist wizard's repertoire. Undead animator RP is very, very specific - requiring almost half of the specialist options to either have no summons, or be undead animators, when they aren't even necromancy specialists (so really, half of all specialties, counting necromancy), is just an awful state of things.

Paint wrote: Sun Apr 27, 2025 3:55 am

I've complained about this ten thousand times, but the summary of my complaint is that the act of Animation is so polarizing in roleplay that the actual identity you're going for gets subsumed by it. If you're an evocation specialist, but you animate, you're not an evocation specialist. You're an animator. This is frustrating, because there's no pretty okay but-less good option for these specializations to take, and it'd be really simple to give them one, but it's not on the to-do list.

IMO there's a lot wrong with wiz specialists, but I wouldn't count getting kicked out of Cordor for using an Evo specialist to their full potential among them.
The impact of RP on overal gameplay experience doesn't really speak much to mechanical balance. A class doesn't abruptly become unplayable only because it doesn't lend itself toward loitering in Cordor/Myon/RH style of RP.

Btw. Conju being prohibited to HALF of the specialist options is a hyperbole: https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Wizard#Specialists
It's 2 out of 8 (Abju and Evo specifically)

Transmutation is also opposed to conjuration. So that's 3/8. Nearly half.

It was chalked up to half because necromancy specialists, obviously, also take necromancy, and probably also take animation. Hence why the point was that 4/8 specializations are meant to be animators.

Small edit:
Still waiting for a clarification from Godhand about how transmutation specialist outperforms spellsword.

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Re: Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

Post by -XXX- »

Whatever,
it's still funny to me how "ree I must use undoods" is the the major point of contention when some wizard specialist options have downsides like lose access to haste or getting pretty much hard countered by invis/darkness.

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Re: Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

Post by Paint »

-XXX- wrote: Sun Apr 27, 2025 8:29 am

IMO there's a lot wrong with wiz specialists, but I wouldn't count getting kicked out of Cordor for using an Evo specialist to their full potential among them.
The impact of RP on overal gameplay experience doesn't really speak much to mechanical balance. A class doesn't abruptly become unplayable only because it doesn't lend itself toward loitering in Cordor/Myon/RH style of RP.

Btw. Conju being prohibited to HALF of the wizard specialist options is a hyperbole: https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Wizard#Specialists
It's 2 out of 8 (Abju and Evo specifically)

Yes it's the roleplay I was referring to. I would like to be able to roleplay these specs in the places I like to roleplay without shooting myself in the foot mechanically, and considering these specializations in description and deployment have nothing to do with undead, I'm really not sure why there's no option to not do that. That is the crux of the complaint. That's really all it is.

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Re: Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

Post by Perplexia »

imagine caring about roleplay when playing on the roleplay server in the computer role-playing game

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Re: Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

Post by Rei_Jin »

I’ll be honest and say that I do not see why, mechanically for balance reasons, wizard needs to have opposing schools for specialists be completely blocked.

Just give them a penalty to any save DCs and to CL for effects, and that’s enough, just like Shadowmage has.

Now that Transmuters can’t buff their summons, does it matter if they have them? No, no it does not, especially when an Enchanter can supercharge their summons with Good Hope already.

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Re: Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

Post by Disaster Lesbian »

Rei_Jin wrote: Sun Apr 27, 2025 10:23 am

I’ll be honest and say that I do not see why, mechanically for balance reasons, wizard needs to have opposing schools for specialists be completely blocked.

Just give them a penalty to any save DCs and to CL for effects, and that’s enough, just like Shadowmage has.

Now that Transmuters can’t buff their summons, does it matter if they have them? No, no it does not, especially when an Enchanter can supercharge their summons with Good Hope already.

In part, it's due to Lore. Realistically speaking, if we're going by PnP standards, most schools have to block two other schools of magic in order to specialise (the exception being Divination, which is also seen as the weakest school.)

In part, I imagine part of the nature of it is also how it's coded from the base game. Personally, I'd rather be able to choose the school I block, over having to have some enforced penalty. On most Surface PCs - pretty sure most of us would end up blocking Necromancy or something anyway.

As a side tangent, having played a Specialist Wizard - the main issue I have with Wizard overall is that they don't have an identity as a class. "Wizard" RP isn't exactly solely a wizard thing, and a lot of what the class can do mechanically is also shared with other classes. While I do believe the class should be worked upon and improved, I'm not savvy enough to really suggest a good idea on that front.

But as things are, if you wanted to play a Wizard? You could pick a different class, have more identity and still cover most/all the same RP notes.

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Re: Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

Post by -XXX- »

Paint wrote: Sun Apr 27, 2025 9:16 am

Yes it's the roleplay I was referring to. I would like to be able to roleplay these specs in the places I like to roleplay without shooting myself in the foot mechanically, and considering these specializations in description and deployment have nothing to do with undead, I'm really not sure why there's no option to not do that. That is the crux of the complaint. That's really all it is.

While I fully appreciate the "I'd like to play an evo specialist wizard and still hang around with my radiant heart buddies" argument, the same argument could also be made for a blackguard, pale master or a warlock.

Some classes are simply meant to shoehorn the player into certain style of RP and that's OK. The reasons for that can also be different than an overtly evil theme of the class - characters can resort to evil actions for reasons other than being a moustache twirling villain. It's up to the player to work with that.
The concern here was mechanical performance - namely the claim that half of the wizard specialists miss out on summons, which simply isn't true.


But this topic got massively derailed into a specialist wizard feedback, all while the "I think I was doing OK on my specialist wizard" argument does not even remotely address the main underlying issues originally brought up in this thread:

  • Wiz/Sorc still being the only two classes with 1d4 HD
  • Action economy disparity between dedicated spellcasters & melee classes
  • Awkwardness of save or suck spells vs saves bloat
  • Vancian spell system imposing a considerable resource limitation
  • Spell disruption checks existing to add insult to injury
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Re: Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

Post by Rei_Jin »

Disaster Lesbian wrote: Sun Apr 27, 2025 11:49 am
Rei_Jin wrote: Sun Apr 27, 2025 10:23 am

I’ll be honest and say that I do not see why, mechanically for balance reasons, wizard needs to have opposing schools for specialists be completely blocked.

Just give them a penalty to any save DCs and to CL for effects, and that’s enough, just like Shadowmage has.

Now that Transmuters can’t buff their summons, does it matter if they have them? No, no it does not, especially when an Enchanter can supercharge their summons with Good Hope already.

In part, it's due to Lore. Realistically speaking, if we're going by PnP standards, most schools have to block two other schools of magic in order to specialise (the exception being Divination, which is also seen as the weakest school.)

In part, I imagine part of the nature of it is also how it's coded from the base game. Personally, I'd rather be able to choose the school I block, over having to have some enforced penalty. On most Surface PCs - pretty sure most of us would end up blocking Necromancy or something anyway.

As a side tangent, having played a Specialist Wizard - the main issue I have with Wizard overall is that they don't have an identity as a class. "Wizard" RP isn't exactly solely a wizard thing, and a lot of what the class can do mechanically is also shared with other classes. While I do believe the class should be worked upon and improved, I'm not savvy enough to really suggest a good idea on that front.

But as things are, if you wanted to play a Wizard? You could pick a different class, have more identity and still cover most/all the same RP notes.

Sure, I understand that by lore, that's how it works.

Except that Arelith is based on NWN, not tabletop, and has been adjusted for what works within the confines of the server setting.

I've been playing D&D for more than thirty years, and as a player and DM, I have always valued "having fun" over "the lore" of the systems and settings, and I'll continue to do so, because we are here as players to have fun.

To that end, if someone wants to play a Transmuter, why should I stop them from having summons, which make a huge difference to their capacity to play on Arelith??? Sure, I might reduce their caster level so that the summon is less strong, but I'm not going to outright deny them the ability to use one.

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Re: Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

Post by A MAN DRUNK ON POWER »

The idea that "playing an evocation specialist" is the same as "playing a palemaster or blackguard" in terms of "you should expect a certain kind of RP experience by playing this" in ANYONE'S brain is mind boggling to me, and actually feels like bad faith arguing. There's no way you're telling me that you believe specialist wiz is balanced because half of them that can't summon, can just use undead, and anyone complaining should just accept that they're playing an animator class in denial. You can't possibly be saying that with a straight face and multiple braincells.

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Re: Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

Post by Paint »

-XXX- wrote: Sun Apr 27, 2025 12:15 pm

While I fully appreciate the "I'd like to play an evo specialist wizard and still hang around with my radiant heart buddies" argument, the same argument could also be made for a blackguard, pale master or a warlock.

Some classes are simply meant to shoehorn the player into certain style of RP and that's OK. The reasons for that can also be different than an overtly evil theme of the class - characters can resort to evil actions for reasons other than being a moustache twirling villain. It's up to the player to work with that.
The concern here was mechanical performance - namely the claim that half of the wizard specialists miss out on summons, which simply isn't true.

Right. But uh, there's nothing to imply these specializations would, in flavor, require necromancy. This seems to be more of a personal matter for you than a rational one, though. I honestly don't see why they shouldn't have an option that doesn't shoehorn their RP. Honestly, I feel like I'm talking in circles, because I know you get the point, but it's like you want people to not have fun playing specializations that are already hamstrung, and that's kind of sad.

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Re: Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

Post by godhand- »

Paint wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2025 10:54 am

I'm gonna need an explanation for this one, because we've been trying to crack the formula for years here. In what ways does a transmutation wizard outperform a spellsword?

I first ran this as an arcane archer drow - that build had 60AC 52AB
I was able to facetank weapon masters and compete with them. Before including/gaming with summons and stealth (which comfortably fits)

I've also run it as a halfling with throwing knives (and sling is possible too i suppose)

here are some quick throwing-knife halfling numbers

AC 65
15 dex
20 EMA
10 base
5 fencing buckler
6 tumble
4 haste
1 boots/dodge
1 Mage armor dodge
2 armor skin
1 small size

AB 51 52 w/aids

25 base/tensers
2 tensers
3 ewf
3 damask knife
15 dex
1 Prowess
1 small size
1 good aim

It can run either necromancy or illusion. i prefer illusion for flavour, although it inhibits DPS because shadows are a little average in dps output.

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Re: Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

Post by Critique »

Schools are blocked because that's from 3.0 pen and paper, where you're always in a party and summons aren't a necessity, and the NWN developers adapted those rules to a 2000 video game that was either single player (and thus alignment is a non-issue unless you have some self-imposed integrity) or a DM running a party through a module-- nobody expected persistent worlds where people need to solo or run in small groups because they're playing at 3am on a Tuesday Hawaii time and summons are a necessity to play wizards.

There's no way anyone ever decided evocation and transmutation specialists were supposed to be animators because they're inherently evil, that's retroactively filling in the blanks and not the way anyone intended wizards to play. They certainly didn't mean to equate them with blackguards!

I think Summon I-IX spells could be castable by all specialists, they're going to be too weak for PVP and most sane wizards won't take conj focuses to boost them to where they're useful-- it would just help a bit with leveling and not force good wizards playing on the surface to struggle if they don't want to be animators.

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Re: Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

Post by Paint »

godhand- wrote: Sun Apr 27, 2025 8:18 pm

I first ran this as an arcane archer drow - that build had 60AC 52AB
I was able to facetank weapon masters and compete with them. Before including/gaming with summons and stealth (which comfortably fits)

I've also run it as a halfling with throwing knives (and sling is possible too i suppose)

here are some quick throwing-knife halfling numbers

AC 65
15 dex
20 EMA
10 base
5 fencing buckler
6 tumble
4 haste
1 boots/dodge
1 Mage armor dodge
2 armor skin
1 small size

AB 51 52 w/aids

25 base/tensers
2 tensers
3 ewf
3 damask knife
15 dex
1 Prowess
1 small size
1 good aim

It can run either necromancy or illusion. i prefer illusion for flavour, although it inhibits DPS because shadows are a little average in dps output.

Huh. Those numbers check out. I can't imagine the damage is very good on it, though. Especially if you're hitting 15 dex. Easier on a halflling. I can see why you're trading with WMs. They have some pretty dogwater AC most of the time, and they're going to whiff against 65 AC more often than not, especially if they're not taking advantage of flatfooting that precarious tower of dodge ac. Does this build get uncanny dodge? I had thought about making a throwing tenser's build once, but dismissed the idea. This is actually pretty interesting. I concede, there's something here that I hadn't seen before. This doesn't necessarily compete with SS, though, as an SS doesn't do much ranged combat to begin with -- outside of some really bizarre AA builds, anyway.

Naghast
Posts: 323
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:09 pm

Re: Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

Post by Naghast »

-XXX- wrote: Sun Apr 27, 2025 12:15 pm
Paint wrote: Sun Apr 27, 2025 9:16 am

Yes it's the roleplay I was referring to. I would like to be able to roleplay these specs in the places I like to roleplay without shooting myself in the foot mechanically, and considering these specializations in description and deployment have nothing to do with undead, I'm really not sure why there's no option to not do that. That is the crux of the complaint. That's really all it is.

While I fully appreciate the "I'd like to play an evo specialist wizard and still hang around with my radiant heart buddies" argument, the same argument could also be made for a blackguard, pale master or a warlock.

Some classes are simply meant to shoehorn the player into certain style of RP and that's OK. The reasons for that can also be different than an overtly evil theme of the class - characters can resort to evil actions for reasons other than being a moustache twirling villain. It's up to the player to work with that.
The concern here was mechanical performance - namely the claim that half of the wizard specialists miss out on summons, which simply isn't true.


But this topic got massively derailed into a specialist wizard feedback, all while the "I think I was doing OK on my specialist wizard" argument does not even remotely address the main underlying issues originally brought up in this thread:

  • Wiz/Sorc still being the only two classes with 1d4 HD
  • Action economy disparity between dedicated spellcasters & melee classes
  • Awkwardness of save or suck spells vs saves bloat
  • Vancian spell system imposing a considerable resource limitation
  • Spell disruption checks existing to add insult to injury

...No. No the same argument can't be made for those classes. For several reasons.

A warlock literally makes a pact with an evil entity for power. This is an intrinsic part of the setting. It makes such a pact for power. With a VERY EVIL entity. For power. One of it's very prominent class features is an eldritch summon. Which brings out a fiend. A literal embodiment of evil, that warps it's very surroundings with it's presence on material plane. Brought as an ally. Also non-good alignment should be a hint here.

Blackguard ALSO does that. Blackguard has a requirement to be evil. It is SPECIFICALLY a soldier of evil deities. Straight up has a whole paragraph in it's class description about how evil blackguards are. Their entire concept is being an anti-paladin. Literal BIG EVIL.

Palemasters are masters of undeath. And undead in the setting, iirc, are basically equivalent to walking AND leaking barrels of nuclear waste. And they master the ability to bring those, literally decaying the world around them with their presence, and even turn themselves part-undead.

Equating someone who specialises in magic that Creates fire or bolts of magical force, which is no less evil than swinging a sword, is like saying that ranger and blackguard are the same. No they're not. There's nothing inherently evil about evocation specialisation. There's nothing inherently evil about being a ranger.

And that creates the problem here. Because being cut off from one of two sources of a solid summon kind of shoehorns them towards the other option. And the other option has massive RP ramifications of... Animating undead.

As for the points you mentioned... Yeah the discussion beforehand did not address those issues. Because it's yet another issue to be added to that very list.

godhand- wrote: Sun Apr 27, 2025 8:18 pm
Paint wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2025 10:54 am

I'm gonna need an explanation for this one, because we've been trying to crack the formula for years here. In what ways does a transmutation wizard outperform a spellsword?

I first ran this as an arcane archer drow - that build had 60AC 52AB
I was able to facetank weapon masters and compete with them. Before including/gaming with summons and stealth (which comfortably fits)

I've also run it as a halfling with throwing knives (and sling is possible too i suppose)

here are some quick throwing-knife halfling numbers

AC 65
15 dex
20 EMA
10 base
5 fencing buckler
6 tumble
4 haste
1 boots/dodge
1 Mage armor dodge
2 armor skin
1 small size

AB 51 52 w/aids

25 base/tensers
2 tensers
3 ewf
3 damask knife
15 dex
1 Prowess
1 small size
1 good aim

It can run either necromancy or illusion. i prefer illusion for flavour, although it inhibits DPS because shadows are a little average in dps output.

Ah, ranged. I did consider that as an option for my transmutation specialist. I think my damage, with a crossbow, was sitting at around 26 per shot with PVP ammo (GMW, blackstaff, elemental weapon).
Overall i dropped that idea before getting it rolling on live because i ordered a crossbow from like three other people and all 3 of them rolled before delivering it. And then i chose to stay melee.

Facetanking and competing with weaponmasters is... Interesting, however, i can somewhat see it happening if they forget to sip true strikes, or utilise other tools. Otherwise you may have to run around a tad bit.

Although, since you mentioned using a trans spec as an arcane archer drow. Did you mean you used it with arcane archer levels? Did you dip your wizard levels below 24? Were you even able to use tensers still?

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