Barbarian v2.0: "Make you a sword of me!"

[Undeadbarista]

Abit of thread necromancy. Would granting the barbarian a permanen +2 str&con per 10 lvls of barb be too powerfull? Thought it went with the theme and encourage more lvls into it. Would also help to get those sweet feats that make one more awesome.

[Tyrantos]

Necromanceries. Is this thing gonna be a thing? Or just not?

[Tyrantos]

Hm. Maybe I shouldn't bump this, but I never really got any answer the last time- And I am still curious! Will anything be done from this? Because I do belive that Barbarians need alittle extra "oomph".

[Mithreas]

Yes, and probably based around a rage change. I haven't settled on a design yet.

In particular, I want to make rage unlimited uses per day, but to have it wear off and leave you worse off, so it has a real cost in longer fights. But I'm still messing with the balance implications of that (e.g. should it be a fort save each round to maintain rage, so that its duration is somewhat variable and it's more of a risk to use it).

The basic recipe of speed + biteback + vampiric regen + will boost is probably the right formula, though numbers obviously need work.

[cornelius_4]

- +1 Vampiric Regen per 3 levels added to currently equipped weapon.
.

In terms of flavour I'd prefer regen while raging. Vampiric regen is more evil aligned and perhaps a tad unnatural. On the other hand, a barbarian firing up such a fury and hyperactive state that his/her natural healing swings into full gear would fit well .

[Jagel]

Vamp regen on the other hand forces you to fight to regain health. With rage as a cooldown ability normal regen would be possible to use as a healing ability when just standing around.

[Lorkas]

I don't think vampiric regen has to be thought of as evil necessarily. I can think of a lot of ways it could be RPd that don't involve evil (though in any of those scenarios you are still trying to kill something any time you use it.)

[miesny_jez]

I would suggest thinking also on how could one buff up the AC of a Barbarian char..

When I think of a Barbarian.. I always envisage it carrying a huge two-handed weapon. The problem with two-handers is You have to neglect the shield bonus leading You with kinda low AC for Arelith.

How about a small AC bonus when the Rage is active? +4 would be enough I think - it would make it similar to a DD stance but still missing things like sneak immune(from DD levels) or uni spell saves.


I am currently playing a Tribal barbarian. I find it pretty good in its current state.. even pretty damn good so I don't think that the Tribal barb would require any changes at all at this point..Maybe just upgrade their weapon AB bonus to scale with level (for DR piercing).

[Scurvy Cur]

AC is the absolute last thing barbs need. That's sort of headed in the opposite direction of the design space that would make them unique.

[Cortex]

Ideally, you'd have to make them as useful as a fighter/WM(with the present stats fighters get). They have over the top DPS, second only to monks in mundane AC and high HP pool, it only falls short on saves, relatively even because they can boost it.

They don't HAVE to be able to beat the fighter/WM 100%, but at least be good enough that between a barbarian and a fighter/WM power, you will be torn on what to pick.

[Ork]

In 5E. A barbarian adds his CON modifier to AC if he is unarmored. Just a thought.

[Morderon]

A wouldn't mind seeing a greater bonus for barbs for con investment; after meeting the epic damage reduction requirements it becomes pretty lackluster. I don't think the fort save to increase the rage duration would be enough of an incentive.

Increasing AC will interfere with the biteback ability.

I initially thought of 5% immunity for each con modifier after 5, which would be helpful on a barbarian as it synergies well with damage reduction; and while I don't see this as against what I'm reading as the barbarian's design space.. a barbarian, more so then the fighter, should be about quickly putting down opponents; and being pretty bad off if he's unable to do so. Perhaps con should influence the damage of the biteback? Though.. I'm iffy about barbarian being able to biteback an opponent they otherwise have a hard time hitting; even if victory this way would most certainly be expensive with the healing supplies.

On two handed weapons, and dual-wielding because that's feat (and potentially ability point) expensive. IMO, as hard as it is for a fighter to give up his shield, it should be just as hard for a barbarian to want a shield. Additional biteback damage (1.5) and double (?) vamperic regen for dual wielding/two-handers?

[cornelius_4]

I don't think vampiric regen has to be thought of as evil necessarily. I can think of a lot of ways it could be RPd that don't involve evil (though in any of those scenarios you are still trying to kill something any time you use it.)

It's not just the killing to me. It's more when I think of how the mechanic works. I'm imagining the effect actively sucking the lifeforce out of the unfortunate one being stabbed by your sword - a type of effect that would have its roots in necromancy.

I'm thinking the sensation should at least make a good aligned character feel uncomfortable... like something about it is just not quite... right. But yeah it is open for interpretation .

[Mithreas]

Though.. I'm iffy about barbarian being able to biteback an opponent they otherwise have a hard time hitting; even if victory this way would most certainly be expensive with the healing supplies.

I actually really like it for exactly that reason - it means that a raging barbarian can take down /anyone/... if they can live long enough to do it. They are always a threat.

[Cortex]

Are numbers the only thing left to decide in your rework?

[Tyrantos]

Yes, and probably based around a rage change. I haven't settled on a design yet.

In particular, I want to make rage unlimited uses per day, but to have it wear off and leave you worse off, so it has a real cost in longer fights. But I'm still messing with the balance implications of that (e.g. should it be a fort save each round to maintain rage, so that its duration is somewhat variable and it's more of a risk to use it).

The basic recipe of speed + biteback + vampiric regen + will boost is probably the right formula, though numbers obviously need work.

You could steal something slightly from Pathfinder barbarian. Whenever they leave their rage, they become fatigued for twice the amount of rounds they were in rage. And then you just slap an DC that increases each round for staying in the rage on that.

(A fatigued character can neither run nor charge and takes a –2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity.)

To be fair, there's alot of nice things for Barbarians in Pathfinder, such as rage Powers.

[Mithreas]

Here's what I've ended up with - a slight compromise between my ideal implementation and coding complexity/performance impacts.

Code: Select all

	- The standard Rage is replaced by an effect that:
      - gives you a -2 penalty to AC
	  - increases your movement rate by 50%
	  - gives you a damage shield effect, hurting anyone who hits you.  Damage
	    is your rage level + your con bonus
	  - applies vampiric regen to your main hand weapon equal to your rage level
	  - boosts your will save by your rage level + your con bonus.
	  Duration is changed to 2d4 + con mod rounds.
	  
	  When Rage ends it removes all bonuses and winds you, maintaining the AC
	  penalty for 10 rounds, during which you cannot Rage again.
	  
	  (Rage Level is the number of rages you would usually get per day.  But 
	  you now get infinite uses per day.  Epic rage feats each increase your 
	  Rage Level by 1; Mighty Rage has no other effects, the others do their
	  usual things.  Max rage level is therefore 10 with all 3 epic feats). 

The module is building right now, so next reset will pick this up. Feedback welcome once barbarians have actually started testing it out...

[Cortex]

I like the concept, hard to tell how it'll do in mid-late. Specially hard to tell since barbarians do fine early on and it'd take leveling one to mid-epic to find out how they'd do. Have you run tests, or would run tests given volunteers?

[miesny_jez]

I initially thought of 5% immunity for each con modifier after 5, which would be helpful on a barbarian as it synergies well with damage reduction;

Hmm this could be indeed better then flat out AC, maybe even put it on a limit: works only when Raging + no Shield or ranged weapon is equipped.

Though I am a bit concerned with numbers on this. We could reasonably assume that a Barbarian char could have a CON of: 22 (Base) + 12(enchanted) = 34 with modifier of +12 in this case.

So:
12 - 5 = 7 *5% = 35 % flat out damage immunity.
Adding to that the damage reduction
EDR3 + Barbarian lvl 16 - 27 = 9 + (2-6) = 11 - 15

As the immunities stack with other item-based immunitites we could get the following:
Slashing (armor) 10% + 35 % = 45%
Bludgeoing (Helmet) 10% +35% = 45%
Piercing (no shield used) = 35%

Simulated damage:
Avg hit received: 25 damage
Avg crit: 70

What does it mean for our Barbarian:
Against average hits he would receive:
25 - 11.25 (immunity 45%) = 13.75 - DR(11-15) = 2.75@DR11 to -1.25@DR15

Against average crits:
70 - 31.5 = 38.5 - DR(11-15) = 27.5@DR11to 23.5@DR15

Considering that a Barbarian would have (with current idea) Vampiric regeneration.. he would be impossible to kill in melee with current idea of 5% immunity for each con modifier after 5, for an average Arelith mob

I guess the idea of 5% immu would have to be toned down to cap at absolute max of 20%.

On two handed weapons, and dual-wielding because that's feat (and potentially ability point) expensive. IMO, as hard as it is for a fighter to give up his shield, it should be just as hard for a barbarian to want a shield. Additional biteback damage (1.5) and double (?) vamperic regen for dual wielding/two-handers?

Double Vamp Regen when dual-wielding would mean it could fire 2 times more per ropund then for Two-handed weapons making it the most optimal fighting style for any Barbarian.

Therefore if considering this.. the vamp regen would have to be upped ONLY for Two-handed weapons to compensate for this.

[miesny_jez]

Here's what I've ended up with - a slight compromise between my ideal implementation and coding complexity/performance impacts.

Code: Select all

	- The standard Rage is replaced by an effect that:
      - gives you a -2 penalty to AC
	  - increases your movement rate by 50%
	  - gives you a damage shield effect, hurting anyone who hits you.  Damage
	    is your rage level + your con bonus
	  - applies vampiric regen to your main hand weapon equal to your rage level
	  - boosts your will save by your rage level + your con bonus.
	  Duration is changed to 2d4 + con mod rounds.
	  
	  When Rage ends it removes all bonuses and winds you, maintaining the AC
	  penalty for 10 rounds, during which you cannot Rage again.
	  
	  (Rage Level is the number of rages you would usually get per day.  But 
	  you now get infinite uses per day.  Epic rage feats each increase your 
	  Rage Level by 1; Mighty Rage has no other effects, the others do their
	  usual things.  Max rage level is therefore 10 with all 3 epic feats). 

The module is building right now, so next reset will pick this up. Feedback welcome once barbarians have actually started testing it out...

I think this is rather a nerf then a boost for a Barbarian. It doesnt improve the Barbarians ability to fight - no AB no Damage increase, it only makes the Barbarian slightly (Vamp regen is quite buggy) more resistant to overall damage.

Consider a situation:
A party with a dedicated Tanking char (a DD) who has put the Barbarian on -guard.

The Barbarian is not being attacked = no biteback damage on enemies

Raging in this situation gives only a Will save boost for the Barbarian.. he would not contribute from either the Biteback.. or the Vampiric regen (as he is not hit - does not loose hp).

The ideal situation would be to receive additionall a flat damage and AB increase when raging but the question is is it possible to add it NOT on the weapon (like a CoT Wrath effect) - as adding on the weapon would suddenly allow Barbarians to pierce Stoneskin when raging (through AB mod on weapon).

[grip]

Consider a situation:
A party with a dedicated Tanking char (a DD) who has put the Barbarian on -guard.

Tell them not to guard you.

[Norfildor]

I'd suggest giving the barbarian 10% physical damage immunity per 3 levels of rage as well as immunity to critical hits for the duration of the rage.

[Jagel]

Question time:
Does the vamp regen work when unarmed/polymorphed?
Is this FL-ready or will it need tweaking? (i.e. time)

[miesny_jez]

I'd suggest giving the barbarian 10% physical damage immunity per 3 levels of rage as well as immunity to critical hits for the duration of the rage.

See my calculations up in this thread - You would make unkillable barbarians

Does the vamp regen work when unarmed/polymorphed?

Good question how will this work for Werewolfed characters?

[JediMindTrix]

I suggest 10% damage immunity ever 10 - 15 levels of pure barbarian that stacks with other sources... whatever those may be.

Biteback damage works seemingly well on paper but I'm not imaginative enough to figure out how to convincingly roleplay that. The best I can come up with is: "My Muscles Eat You".