Barbarian v2.0: "Make you a sword of me!"

[Shadowy Reality]

Something I forgot to mention in my previous post.

The Biteback does not bypass DR. There were quite a few mobs which were immune to it as result (vampires), highly resistant (undead/oozes in general) and mildly resistant (enemies with heavy armor).

As far as I'm aware monsters only get more DR as levels progress, I would not like to see Biteback become less and less effective (dealing less damage) as ou level up.

[Cortex]

After a bit of testing, I'm adding a further effect to rage - adding a temp HP bonus equal to half the barbarian's max HP. That'll wear off after 10s like the rest of the beneficial effects, but won't kill you when it wears off unlike a CON bonus!

I've also played with the hilarious combo of being in troll form while raging. Easier to achieve on FL than the main server, but still possible on both...

7 days after this doesn't works, unless it hasn't been implemented.

Also, some suggested tweaks(not all at once or with exact numbers):

Give barbarian stacking DR equal to rage level during rage.
Add a 2x multiplier to rage level for vampiric regen and bite back damage(2x only to RLvl, not CON modifier).
Change biteback damage to pierce DR or change it to another unmitigable damage type.
Have the HP bonus last another 10 seconds per rage level.
For every 50 damage taken during rage, the barbarian's AB and/or damage increases.

More feat ideas for Mighty/Thundering/Terrifying Rage or just all around ideas:

Removes/lowers cooldown.
Causes stacking bleed on hit.
The barbarian is treated one/two sizes larger than normal(making him immune/harder to KD)
Continuation from above: If the barbarian is fighting an opponent smaller than he is, he gains AB/damage or some other bonus.
If a console command for rage is added, upon use of it, the barbarian is rid of all debuffs(normal cooldown, once per day? Works like prays without the full heal).
Barbarian gains mind immunity/freedom of movement/death ward for 5 seconds*rage level upon rage.
Thundering Rage!: Upon activation, a Balagarn's Iron Effect is rolled to everyone in the barbarian's surroundings(regardless if friend or foe), usual effect or vs one of the barbarian's scores.

Edit, moar ideas:

The barbarian gets +1 Great Con/Epic Toughness at his 21th barbarian level, and another rank for every three levels.
A 21th barbarian gets a free epic rage feat.
For every kill, the barbarian rage is extended for one round.
If not using a shield, the barbarian gets a scaling AB/damage bonus during rage.
During rage, the barbarian gets +4 hard STR(not soft, not sure if possible).

edit 2:
Expanded from bleed effect: On hit causes a bleed effect equal to the barbarian's STR score, stacking. If too strong, make it not stack or less damage per hit.

[Cortex]

Has anyone been playing a barbarian? I'd like to hear their experience.

[Shadowy Reality]

I've been playing a barbarian and I can give my thoughts on the first few levels, I have mostly been playing with a two handed weapon and light armor, my AC being minimal. My experience has been mixed.

Fresh out of the boat the Barbarian does great. Enemies have low HP, which means the biteback really hurts them. You can easily go through rats, lunatics, wolverines and later on kobolds and goblins.

As you rise in levels, and I haven't gotten that many. The Barbarian's effectiveness seems to drop like a rocket. Monsters will often use Power Attack, which means you are taking high damage per hit, your low AC means you're being hit pretty much everytime. Many of these enemies have DR, either X/- or Y/+1 which means your biteback gets nearly shutdown.

This doesn't even account for the number of enemies that use ranged attacks or spells, which entirely bypass the biteback.

Vampiric Regeneration is really low. Between misses and it not proccing, and havng one or two attacks per round, you're looking at getting 10 HP back through your rage, if you're lucky.

Since you have really low AC, you need to use healing kits a lot. I've just recently went to the Swamps and found two Lizard Warriors. Usually their Power Attack is avoidable, because you have heavy armor and tower shield. However with a low AC barbarian I have found myself almost exclusively using kits. This means you are not attacking (which means vampiric regeneration is proccing even less times), and it hurts your overall gold progression.

I find that currently, a traditional barbarian, with low AC, is still much harder to pull off than a fighter going for heavy armor and shield. And I think the point of this reword is that barbarians be barbarians, go crazy and jump into the frey.

As for constructive suggestions... I don't have many. I think the inherent problem is that the biteback and vampiric regeneration scale much slower than the enemies' damage output. And ti gets worse, because out of the top of my head I can think of several low-mid level monsters with Damage Reduction (Lizards, Forest Ogres).

Increase Vampiric Regeneration by a lot, you can probably add Barbarian Level/2 and it will still be lowish. Consider switching to regeneration.
Instead of implementing the previous mentioned bonus to rage of Half HP as Temporary Hitpoints, make it scale off Barbarian level and Rage Level, so you don't see fighters with 3 levels of barbarian for a huge increase in HP. You can probably do Barbarian Level * (Rage Level + Con Mod)

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

A quick interjection if I may:

I am playing a bard currently which has had similar damage output / survivability issues. There is a very delicate balance of AC, damage and biteback (wounding whispers) to consider in choosing what weapon to use, low-mid levels (before you get extra attacks). In short: a shield is all but necessary to raise the AC to a point where some attacks miss, as oppose to hit and cause biteback.

Anyone testing a barbarian should consider testing 2-handed and 1-handed & shield to get the range of survivability.

Another thought: a barbarian helm currently exists. would an expansion of that, to include barbarian leathers, a barbarian shield and bracers be an option?

[Shadowy Reality]

I agree with your take on the AC. In fact, I have another Barbarian, nearly at epic levels.

I have found him to be way easier to level than this one. Why? Because I was using tower shield and heavy armour, coupled with Expertise and Improved Expertise, and I could manage to find a balance between AC and AB depending on wich mobs I fought. But what is the point of raging if your character is still giving priority to defence? Why would you Rage and then turn Improved Expertise on?

[miesny_jez]

Hmm.. maybe I will suggest something crazy here

But what do You think about giving the Barbarian a Devastating Critical Feat when he is in rage ?

I am saying here a DevCrit even on low levels as a temporary weapon enchant, will save bonus plus the Vampiric Regen on weapon but remove the biteback.

The Rage length and vampiric regen wold scale with Barbarian rage level:
Rage1 = 1 round + St mod/2 OR Dx mod/2 OR Con mod/2(whichever higher)
Rage2 - 5 = 2-5 round + St mod/2 OR Dx mod/2 OR Con mod/2(whichever higher)
Terrifying Rage = as normal adds a fear aura
Thrundering Rage = adds a Spell Resistance based on character levels, spell immunity (lvl1-3) and the standard deafness on hit
Mighty Rage =changes to length modifier to: 1.5*St mod OR 1.5*Dx mod OR 1.5*Con mod(whichever higher) + Damage Immunity 15% + Elemental Immunity 15%

As a downisde when the rage ends: -50% movement speed, -5 AC, -4 AB/Damage, -5 will save FOR: 10 rounds + Character level - ROUNDUP(1.25*Barbarian class levels)

Example numbers (all assumes lvl 30 char):
3 Barb/X/X = 37 rounds downtime
15 Barb/X/X = 22 rounds downtime
18 Barb/X/X = 18 rounds downtime
23 Babr/X/X = 12 rounds downtime
25 Babr/X/X = 9 rounds
30 Barb = 3 rounds downtime


It would certainly make a Barbarian WANT to rage during a fight.. but at the same time it would be very stupid or risky to do it if Your rage would end without killing Your foes. It would also benefit a pure or mostly pure barbarian the most by eliminating the downtime while leaving the cookie-cuter specs with a considerable downtime risk (15 Barb/X/X and 18 Barb/X/X ). It would mean that the most beneficial tactic for a barbarian would to wind up his foes in one group... activate rage and benefit from the temporary DevCrit as much as he could in the short time.


I just simply don't like the idea of biteback damage.. for me it doesnt make the Barbarian more terrifying duirng his rage.

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

I agree with your take on the AC. In fact, I have another Barbarian, nearly at epic levels.

I have found him to be way easier to level than this one. Why? Because I was using tower shield and heavy armour, coupled with Expertise and Improved Expertise, and I could manage to find a balance between AC and AB depending on wich mobs I fought. But what is the point of raging if your character is still giving priority to defence? Why would you Rage and then turn Improved Expertise on?

Absolutely. I felt on a previous barbarian character of my own (years ago) I had to dip into fighter for heavy armour. A tower shield seems too romanesque for a barbarian - hence my suggestion for supporting gear more in keeping. Maybe.

[Jagel]

Might be far fetched but:

Rage without expertise: jump into the middle of enemies hell bent on taking them down violently.

Rage with expertise: Jump into the midst of enemies and swing, dodge, yell and confuse.

Possible tweaks: give barbs at a certain (rage) lvl concealment against ranged. Replace vamp regen with a temp damage boost. Or give them some piercing/bludg/slashing immunity.

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

...As a downisde when the rage ends: -50% movement speed, -5 AC, -4 AB/Damage, -5 will save FOR: 10 rounds + Character level - ROUNDUP(1.25*Barbarian class levels)

Example numbers (all assumes lvl 30 char):
3 Barb/X/X = 37 rounds downtime
15 Barb/X/X = 22 rounds downtime
18 Barb/X/X = 18 rounds downtime
23 Babr/X/X = 12 rounds downtime
25 Babr/X/X = 9 rounds
30 Barb = 3 rounds downtime


It would certainly make a Barbarian WANT to rage during a fight.. but at the same time it would be very stupid or risky to do it if Your rage would end without killing Your foes. It would also benefit a pure or mostly pure barbarian the most by eliminating the downtime while leaving the cookie-cuter specs with a considerable downtime risk (15 Barb/X/X and 18 Barb/X/X ). It would mean that the most beneficial tactic for a barbarian would to wind up his foes in one group... activate rage and benefit from the temporary DevCrit as much as he could in the short time.

Are those downside penalties unduly long and painful, especially at low levels? Care would have to be taken they don't mean instant defeat. As a thought: an equal level bard song should be able to balance them out, encouraging partnering up with support classes.

[Mithreas]

7 days after this doesn't works, unless it hasn't been implemented.

Correct, I didn't get around to testing and building before my travel started.

I've compiled and committed it now, though. No testing, so it's probably overpowered. Have fun until I decide to nerf it to something more reasonable

[miesny_jez]

...As a downisde when the rage ends: -50% movement speed, -5 AC, -4 AB/Damage, -5 will save FOR: 10 rounds + Character level - ROUNDUP(1.25*Barbarian class levels)

Example numbers (all assumes lvl 30 char):
3 Barb/X/X = 37 rounds downtime
15 Barb/X/X = 22 rounds downtime
18 Barb/X/X = 18 rounds downtime
23 Babr/X/X = 12 rounds downtime
25 Babr/X/X = 9 rounds
30 Barb = 3 rounds downtime


It would certainly make a Barbarian WANT to rage during a fight.. but at the same time it would be very stupid or risky to do it if Your rage would end without killing Your foes. It would also benefit a pure or mostly pure barbarian the most by eliminating the downtime while leaving the cookie-cuter specs with a considerable downtime risk (15 Barb/X/X and 18 Barb/X/X ). It would mean that the most beneficial tactic for a barbarian would to wind up his foes in one group... activate rage and benefit from the temporary DevCrit as much as he could in the short time.

Are those downside penalties unduly long and painful, especially at low levels? Care would have to be taken they don't mean instant defeat. As a thought: an equal level bard song should be able to balance them out, encouraging partnering up with support classes.

The trick with this approach is that the penalties are getting awful only when You would design a build just for the benefit or Dev Crit rage with minimal Barb levels (ex Barb3/Fight20/WM7). In case You are mainly doing Barbarian with just a splinter into some other classes You actually have a reduced rage downtime.
Example 1: Character lvl 5, Barb4/Rouge1 = downtime 10 - MAIN Barbarian
Example 2: Character lvl 20, Barb16,Rouge3,WM1 = downtime 10 - Main Barbarian
Example 3: Character lvl 20, Barb3, WM7, Rouge10 = downtime 26 - Barbarian as a cookie-cutter
Example 4: Character lvl 30, Barb23, WM7 = downtime 12 - Barbarian WM only cookie (no UMD)
Example 5: Character lvl 30, Barb20, Rouge3,WM7 = downtime 15, BWR cookie build - downtime increased

The rage effect which I propose here is extremely powerful of course.. so the idea is to not use it for every single goblin You find on Your path. My thought about it is that the barbarian can fight normally without the rage.. but when he rages You better hide or run cause he's a beast who can slice You in two.

[Shadowy Reality]

I've compiled and committed it now, though. No testing, so it's probably overpowered. Have fun until I decide to nerf it to something more reasonable

Still playing the barbarian, now reaching the two digits on levels. I can say that the HP change put me right back on par with the rest of melee folks. I can now safely tank a few good hits, which is usually enough to mitigate those first rounds where all the mobs are still alive.

I don't see this being awfully broken at first glance, my HP still generally drops like a rock. I could see this being problematic with a certain kind of builds. If someone builds an AC focused barbarian, this will increase their tanking ability by a lot (which may actually be redundant, if the rage expires before the Temp HP).

And my biggest concern. The HP you gain is in no way related to the number of barbarian levels invested and this is something I feel is important. Barbarian, even as is, has few incentives to go more than a few levels. This HP boost, speed and biteback are good additions to any fighter or wm build. Like the Biteback and Vampiric Regeneration, tie the amount of Temporary Hit Points gained with Rage Level or Barbarian levels diectly.

By Rage Level: ((Rage Level * 3) + Con)/2 Barbarian gets a Rage Level Roughly every 3 levels.
By Barbarian Level: Barbarian Level/2 * (12 + Con) exactly the same as it gives now, if single class barbarians. This is probably the cleanest implementation.

[Cortex]

I think the bonus HP barbarian should be limited to people with a minimum of barbarian levels, but I don't think it will matter much when spellcasting is disabled during rage. My only concern is warlock 27 barbarian 3.

[Shadowy Reality]

It does matter. Because why then would I invest more than 3 levels in my Barbarian, what are the perks of going more levels on Barbarian? At this moment the perk is that your Rage Level increases from 2 to 10, which translates to 8 Will, 8 Vampiric Regeneration and 8 more damage in Biteback.

Thing is, a Barbarian4/FighterX/wmY is getting the same temporary HP as you. While having more AB, more AC and a bigger damage output. The only thing that could put a Barbarian competing with other melee types is that buffer HP.

Even a Barbarian4/Fighter26 is going to have more damage (he has +5 weapon), more AC (he has +5 Helm and Armor) and way more feats. Give him the same Temporary HP gain as a Barbarian and he'll overshadow the Barbarian.

This solves the issus with warlock/barbarian builds, because the Temporary HP they are getting is minimal.

[Cortex]

I still believe barbarians need more scaling absolutely, but taking a splash of 3 barbarian in a ftr/wm build will take UMD/tumble, both very important.

[Shadowy Reality]

Please lets not balance this about what other people might be giving up, and actually balance it around the number of levels you invest in it.

[msterswrdsmn]

Suggestion:

Remove the STR bonus from the barb drunk bonuses and replace it with DR. The strength of the dr depends on how drunk you are/your total barb levels

Reason: The drunken bonus was a questionable tradeoff back when it used to give a +8 to +12 str bonus. I hear its been severly nerfed, but the small "drop your DEX down to 3/flatfoot yourself ever 2 rounds" has not been changed.

As it stands, the drunken bonus=suicide

This would compliment some of the issues mentioned above (relying on HP alone to survive is not a good strategy, especially at low levels when something like a lizardman power attack spear crit can one-shot you). DR is powerful, but its coming at a cost of "negative AC" between 3 DEX and rage. Which is more than fair; you're almost guarenteed to be hit, but the damage incurred may be minor, or non-existant.

[Cortex]

I don't think the drunken bonnus should be changed, otherwise every barbarian will be a damned drunkard.

[msterswrdsmn]

Lol. Kind of like they were when being drunk gave a +12 stat bonus?

I thought of that too, and I don't think it would happen that often. People do want AC, and there would be times when the DR presented by being drunk wouldn't be a suitable substite to not getting hit at all (again, lizardmen spear crits come to mind)

Really, any kind of change to the drunken bonus to make it usable, or not suicidal would be welcomed.

[Cortex]

The new barbarians have no AC whatsoever, so it won't matter if they have 15 AC or 7 AC when they're facing 30 AB mobs.

[Shadowy Reality]

I can safely say that I have no isse with the current drunken boni. They fluctuate between +2 and +5 Str and you get between -2 and -5 Dex if I'm not wrong.

The AC is really not an issue, my barbarian has 8 AC during his drunken rages and I have been doing alright since the HP change.

[miesny_jez]

The DX hit is much higher then -5.

As http://wiki.arelith.com/Barbarian#You_are_drunk states it stacks with itself the more ticks You have in the drunken state so You can easily drop Your DX to 3 if You drunk

Code: Select all

 When a character gets drunk their DEX is decreased. More drunk means larger decrease.
getting a sobriety of -10,0% - 0,01 % means a DEX decrease of 2, is sobriety -20,0% - 10,1% the DEX decrease is 4 etc etc.
For every tick in negative sobriety the Decrease stacks. for example having a sobriety at -15% for one tick would mean a DEX decrease of 8. 

The ST bonus is maximum +5

[miesny_jez]

For Barbarian players out there, could You share Your experience with the updated Barbs?

Been a while since the changes were implemented. Curious how do You find it work out for You with new rage mechanic.

How do You value do Biteback damage?
Whats the most useful part of the new rage (in Your opinion)?
Do You think that the new rage made a Barbarian stronger melee option (compare with Fighter)?
What build (pure Barb/mixed with other classes) do You use and how does it work out?
What are the biggest issues You have with the current rage mechanic ?

[Shadowy Reality]

How do You value do Biteback damage?
-It's one of the keys aspects that makes the new Barbarians so viable in melee. It's really, really important.

Whats the most useful part of the new rage (in Your opinion)?
Both Temporary HP and Biteback are the two key mechanics to the new rage. It's really awesome when you jump into a group, and come out nearly unscathed.

Do You think that the new rage made a Barbarian stronger melee option (compare with Fighter)?
They fill different niches. A fighter is a more traditional meleer. He has better defence, probably more AB overall. They will do well against all types of targets.

The Barbarian does best against melee targets, because of the Biteback. Mages and Archers will bypass that. They have basically no defenses but the Temporary HP gives you a nice buffer to kill most of your targets.

What build (pure Barb/mixed with other classes) do You use and how does it work out?
As with most things, while Barbarian 30 might be alright, it's not very optimized. There is also no real boon to be going 30 levels in. You'd be better with the typical rogue levels for UMD and other utility skills, maybe Weapon Master if you can fit the levels in, or both.
The only 'boon' to go more Barbarian is that barbarian has d12, which is the most HP you'll get. That means when you rage you will have more Temporary HP.

What are the biggest issues You have with the current rage mechanic ?
That a Barbarian is entirely reliant on it, really. I struggle with big groups of monsters below my level if I don't have that HP buffer and biteback, because I have no AC, all attacks will be hits.