Quarterbreaking

[Deryliss]

Let me back up a bit because I think we got lost. I strongly support a mechanic that provides consequences for quarterbreakers and opportunity for roleplay to exist where a quarterbraker can be discovered and consequneced. Thats cool. Thats roleplay. Thats conflict. I'm all about that.

Awesome. Glad we agree.

My posts are angled towards the victims of quarterbreaking where you claim no one cares. How well you roleplay influences your outcomes.

Unfortunately, this is not true, and it is this part that made your other post sound condescending. You are attributing this lack of interest solely on the quality of the RP, which is why it sounds like you're blaming the victims for not being good enough victims to get help.

The reason noone cares is because (at present) nothing can be done.
A guard can take your statement, but you have no information give them besides the description of the item that was taken.
A guard can go check your house for 'clues', but there are none, because QB is completely untraceable.
Even in this thread, there has been a seemingly unironic suggestion that in response to an important item/fixture being stolen via QB, you should hire someone to QB *every quarter on the server* until you find the item (hoping, of course, that the item isn't in someone's inventory or citizen storage).

Its hard to make victim RP interesting because there's nothing to make it interesting. What are you expecting? A Shakespearean reenactment of the moment the victim found the item had been stolen? A Cordor Theatre production of the musical "My important thing was stolen and I have no idea how, when or by whom.", complete with translation in Infernal, Abyssal and Undercommon so you can work on your language skills at the same time?

This then circles back to the previous comment. If a system *does* get implemented that enables tracing the burglar in some fashion, that enables a serious investigation by the town guard or by anyone with the right skills that could (theoretically, not a guarantee) lead to the culprit, then yes, that problem has been solved. At that point, victim RP can be interesting, because I have something to give someone so they care enough to investigate, and that could have a positive outcome for the victim and the investigators.

At that point, there is the potential for consequences to the perpetrator.

At that point, we coo. Until then, QB is horribly stacked in favor of the perpetrator, and (in my opinion) is in breach of just about every possible interpretation of the 'be nice' rule, even more so seeing how callously and cruelly some of the players that posted on this thread seem to regard those victimized by QB.

[I will never sleep]

You see, this entire thread is proof positive that the fun or enjoyment of the victims is not even in consideration. There's post after post putting down the victims of quarterbreaking, and providing excuses to why its not a big deal. "It doesn't happen that often!" "Do you know how much effort goes into quarterbreaking?" "Stealing things from you generates so much RP!" "Wanting a chance at getting your stuff back is a must win mentality!"

All this is just thinly veiled gaslighting. The 'must win' mentality is coming from a slew of players who have absolutely no love for those who are their targets. The targets of the quarterbreaking builds they know how to make because they're not shared openly, that are hard to gear up for a solo player, but trivial for an established faction or oocly organized discord group. It's an 'open secret', and its allowed to continue in its present state because 'few people can do it'.

Do you want to know why victim RP isn't interesting? Because the victims are *utterly* on the losing side. They have nothing to fight back with. The perpetrators are held up as the bastion of RP, are given all the tools IC and OOC to succeed, and all they are fighting against is a mathematical challenge (make build to beat DC). They can even make sure to only make their attempts when they -know- their victim is not online, reducing their chance of detection to near zero. You are handed the tools to perform the perfect crime, every time, without consequence.

Meanwhile the victims get none of this. No mechanical support for finding the perpetrators. No way to recover their lost property back without extreme luck or some random act of kindness from the criminal. No love IC or OOC from characters or players whom they would seek help from. This entire thread is proof positive that the 'must win' mentality comes from those who endorse and approve of Quarterbreaking. You simply cannot envision an Arelith where a thief can get caught, unless its on their own terms and by their own design, to enrich their story as they see fit.

The truth: You don't care about the fun for the victim. In fact, here you are mocking their RP for being 'not interesting'. This is not 'be nice'. You're also not alone, which is a damned shame.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

A summary of the arguments I have seen so far:

• Just replace stuff that's taken.

• Not wanting your items taken with 0 input is must win.

• Your things are part of a narrative. No one "owns" it. Think about how much cool rp the thief and their friends are having with your stuff.

• Just use citizen storage/just stuff everything in your character's inventory.

• "So surely if we're thinking of removing all possiblity of entering another persons quarter without explicit permission from the owner - Should we also remove all PvP?" (false equivalence)

• "If you want QB to be more interactive then maybe work on RPing some reactions to it to prompt more material?" ie Just RP More dude!!

• You had RP and people don't like your character. You just want to "avoid consequences". (This one is used to justify all kinds of pretty interesting behavior)

I can't be the only one that thinks these are all ridiculously cope ways of justifying rpless theft.

[Ork]

I'd like to see tools in the hands of players and it looks like that is coming, but engagement doesn't have to be limited to getting even. Not everything will, can or should have closure to events. For instance, I get in pvp with someone over something inconsequential like dungeon dibs. The roleplay that spawns from that doesn't need to be against the victor - it can be about developing a character flaw or trying to overcome a fear of that place or person.

I get it. You want to win against the quarterbreakers just as much as the quarterbreakers want to win (and currently are), but the goal of just getting back at the person is shallow.

[Deryliss]

I'd like to see tools in the hands of players and it looks like that is coming, but engagement doesn't have to be limited to getting even. Not everything will, can or should have closure to events. For instance, I get in pvp with someone over something inconsequential like dungeon dibs. The roleplay that spawns from that doesn't need to be against the victor - it can be about developing a character flaw or trying to overcome a fear of that place or person.

I get it. You want to win against the quarterbreakers just as much as the quarterbreakers want to win (and currently are), but the goal of just getting back at the person is shallow.

Not even remotely the same.

If you get into pvp over 'dungeon dibs', you know who did it, you know why it happened, you know what was taken, you know the context and the aftermath. You have a lot of whole cloth to cut into interesting RP, and that RP can potentially include seeking reparations from or revenge on the one who did it to you.

If you get QBd', you have nothing, except I guess the trauma of having had your home broken into, your things stolen, and then finding out that those around you either can't or won't help in any way. You will never know why your house was broken into,if it was over something you did or simply a random occurance. You will never get to confront the perpetrator, whether to forgive him or to see him punished.

Again, this circles back to the must win mentality. You're okay with the victim being stolen from and you encourage the victim being traumatized by the event, but wanting to be able to do something about it or finding some kind of closure is 'shallow'. You're fine as long as the victim loses, and is happy to roleplay the loss, but wanting to have a chance at a happy ending is shallow.

I don't think anything else needs to be said at this point.

[Ork]

Must win? You're literally arguing you can't win, and you should have a mechanic that lets you, dawg. But okay. The victim in this case is a character, not the player. Entangling yourself to the point that you can't see the difference is pretty dangerous.

[godhand-]

I feel as though you've applied your own tonality and emotions to other peoples writings in the thread, missing the point or the understanding of the intention of others writings.

You see, this entire thread is proof positive that the fun or enjoyment of the victims is not even in consideration. There's post after post putting down the victims of quarterbreaking, and providing excuses to why its not a big deal.

Noone said its not a big deal, people have said they wish for it to be a mechanic to stay.

All this is just thinly veiled gaslighting. The 'must win' mentality is coming from a slew of players who have absolutely no love for those who are their targets.

Gaslighting is a very serious term refering to manipulation and abuse, which i would politely suggest you refrain from using such charged terminology on the forums given their real-world implications.

"Wanting a chance at getting your stuff back is a must win mentality!"

I actually reread the entire thread yesterday, and this was brought up once, on page one. Then others who took offence to the suggestion, are interestingly, the ones bringing it back up.

"Stealing things from you generates so much RP!"

There have been quite a few examples of how it does and can generate RP. The onus is on you to generate it from your characters side of the story.
I, also said, the Onus is on the QB to leave meaningful clues to create follow-up RP. <- A very important point, i believe QB'ers should be held to this. Evidenceless theft is not good.

"It doesn't happen that often"

This point has been brought up specifically around the two false discussion point that players
"Could, within the rules QB evert 24hours to grief players"
"Organise OOC for multiple QB's to hit the same target on the same day."
- Both of which are an outright breach of the #1 rule, be nice.

"Do you know how much effort goes into quarterbreaking?"
The targets of the quarterbreaking builds they know how to make because they're not shared openly, that are hard to gear up for a solo player, but trivial for an established faction or oocly organized discord group. It's an 'open secret', and its allowed to continue in its present state because 'few people can do it'.

These statements are Categorically wrong.
I pretty much posted the build in my explanation post - Its not hard to look at the requirements and reverse-engineer a QB build from what i wrote..... From which, i should explain was not posted in an attempt to provide an excuse as to why its "not a big deal".
People were making wild implications that QB'ing was as simple as walk up and click boom in the house, and it was a simple process to have multiple people break in and co-ordinate OOC greifing.
I was explaining, It cannot be done in that way, against a Maxxed out lock/Trap. It is a VERY time-consuming process with no guarantee of success.
The gearing is simple 3 +2skills and +1dex/+1Int.
Thats really not hard to achieve, with or without a faction.
Few people can do it? Few people care to do it, because the build is utterly GIMPED for any other purpose, and its not guaranteed to work.

I play my QB as my main. Not as an alt to sit in a vault. I know the limitations, But i play him for the roleplay.

QB's who leave no trace or abuse mechanics, should be reported, as has been suggested by MANY OTHERS in this thread. Report it.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

QB's who leave no trace or abuse mechanics, should be reported, as has been suggested by MANY OTHERS in this thread. Report it.

I don't think leaving no trace is against the rules, nor do I think it should be. I'm all for mechanics that help people investigate, but while I have never played a qbreaker if I did I would hate to have to come up with ways for my victim to figure out it was me. Its not because I wouldn't want to get caught, I think ultimately that should be the expectation of playing a character like this, it just feels like playing a lawful stupid paladin or some such if I have to help them figure out who I am.

[Deryliss]

Gaslighting is a very serious term refering to manipulation and abuse, which i would politely suggest you refrain from using such charged terminology on the forums given their real-world implications.

Fair. Give me a better word for 'we would have helped you but you're just not a very entertaining victim' and I'll go edit my posts to replace.

I, also said, the Onus is on the QB to leave meaningful clues to create follow-up RP. <- A very important point, i believe QB'ers should be held to this. Evidenceless theft is not good.

---

QB's who leave no trace or abuse mechanics, should be reported, as has been suggested by MANY OTHERS in this thread. Report it.

Its difficult to report. First of all, unless there's been a recent change I'm not aware of, QBers are not required to leave evidence. ( I know you do it, and I commend you for it, and I know its 'encouraged', and that's good, but its not required, and therefore it isn't reportable with any fairness ). They're not even 'required' to leave traceable or usable evidence. They could even leave false evidence leading to a wrong perpetrator (which, I admit, would be cool, I wouldn't even be mad).

Second, you don't know who did it, or when it was done. Its hard to report something you have no evidence on, weren't even present when it happened, and it might be days or even weeks before you realize it happened.


But tell you what, I'll offer a compromise.

QB is a desired activity. There's players who, like yourself, are not only interested in it but also do it 'right'.
QB should be something that is done in a methodical way, not as a random act. Its almost a form of storytelling, creating RP and spawning potential plot points.
QB is easily abused by those who want to abuse it, and abuse by QBers can go unnoticed for a long time until its too late to do anything about it.

How about we treat QB as we treat assassination by Assassins? Either by making a PRC out of it, complete with DM application and a limitation on the number of people that can perform it (along with quality checks in the form of application and/or RPR requirement), or by making it an activity that specifically requires DM supervision, like a city raid would be?


Would that be fair?

[Ork]

Its difficult to report. First of all, unless there's been a recent change I'm not aware of, QBers are not required to leave evidence. ( I know you do it, and I commend you for it, and I know its 'encouraged', and that's good, but its not required, and therefore it isn't reportable with any fairness ). They're not even 'required' to leave traceable or usable evidence. They could even leave false evidence leading to a wrong perpetrator (which, I admit, would be cool, I wouldn't even be mad).

Second, you don't know who did it, or when it was done. Its hard to report something you have no evidence on, weren't even present when it happened, and it might be days or even weeks before you realize it happened.

DMs have all that information, and have pretty detailed logs.

[godhand-]

QB's who leave no trace or abuse mechanics, should be reported, as has been suggested by MANY OTHERS in this thread. Report it.

I don't think leaving no trace is against the rules, nor do I think it should be. I'm all for mechanics that help people investigate, but while I have never played a qbreaker if I did I would hate to have to come up with ways for my victim to figure out it was me. Its not because I wouldn't want to get caught, I think ultimately that should be the expectation of playing a character like this, it just feels like playing a lawful stupid paladin or some such if I have to help them figure out who I am.

There isn't a rule against it. However, It at least helps bring DM attention to who is potentially doing the QB'ing, At which point, they could also investigate if they are potentially abusing their skillset.

Its hard to monitor something when you have nothing - BUT, DM's have logs, and if something is brought to their attention, they can then investigate to see if it -warrants- attention/further investigation.

[godhand-]

How about we treat QB as we treat assassination by Assassins? Either by making a PRC out of it, complete with DM application and a limitation on the number of people that can perform it (along with quality checks in the form of application and/or RPR requirement), or by making it an activity that specifically requires DM supervision, like a city raid would be?

Would that be fair?

I'm not sure DM supervision is the right approach, But.... i'm sure there could be a creative solution to this.
A PRC would be pretty damned cool, but i imagine it would require a not insignificant investment in development time from the Devs (if they were interested)
But then also balancing existing mechanics to prevent it from being possible in builds. This would not stop team jobs though, only perhaps solobreakers. - So i'm not sure this is a solution thats feasible.

Perhaps making a ruling that theft -REQUIRES- evidence to be left? - Unfortunately it would be hard to set a ruling on this.... what is an acceptable amount of evidence to leave behind?
Perhaps Automate it - Whenever you enter your quarter for up to one real life week after its been broken - you get a notification with similiar prompts to the tracks mechanic (size/race footsteps?) - Skill in search/investigate could give more information??
(Much like when you get pickpocketed, you get a notification after the fact "you notice some gold go missing" )
Higher Search/investigate skill for more information could include :
- Whether door was brute forced (Bashed) or Locks picked? (low search skill)
- accurate race of victim (instead of generic race) (instead of elf, you get drow/Moonelf/etc) (medium search skill)
- Time/date (IG) of breakin? (high skill requirement)

Perhaps both of the above? A note/calling card must be left - Even if its a pseudonym calling-card"the cat burglar has been here"
Combining that with the "tracks/search" investigation mechanic - Would help narrow down and keep records of crimes - so that if/when a player is caught, it could be correlated to previous Break&enters.

QB is easily abused by those who want to abuse it, and abuse by QBers can go unnoticed for a long time until its too late to do anything about it.

See my previous post about how reporting, even though a single theft is not against the rules, can at least help the staff keep tabs on the goings on of QB'ers.

Edited to expand on search-skill idea.

[Eyeliner]

Quarterbreaking is either a permitted activity or it's not. If someone steals more than one item or trashes all the fixtures that's one thing.. But if they operate within the rules I don't like the suggestion that's supposed to be reported because it makes it sound like the entry itself is bad behavior.

If DMs actually said report every suspected QB attempt then I stand corrected but otherwise I'm assuming it's a legal activity like PVP and only ought to be reported if abused.

The system probably just needs to be revamped like pickpocket was to prevent valuable item theft but allow access for other shenanigans. I know people will still complain but at least the stakes will be lower.

[Ninjimmy]

While I'm pro-leaving evidence, I think making it a concrete rule with identifying requirements is gonna be a problem with the power balance ratcheting all the way round to the other side of the spectrum.

I mean, ignoring the incredibly gross comparison to gaslighting for a second, anyone being victimised is presumably in a favoured enough position to own a quarter. There aren't that many and folks WITH quarters do exist in an RP niche where they're easily affording maximum strength locks and stockpiled items worth more than the GDP of Faerun. To this end, they are probably in a good position to seek "revenge" if they have a name or details and it's unlikely to be a case of some time in the slammer, or a beating in an alley. And that's really the question - what would the "victim" actually DO with evidence because I think we all know what the options are and which ones will come up the most.

I've had this talk in the pickpocket thread but the reason people don't do as much RP is because the consequences of choosing to expose yourself is usually "crush until you roll".

People don't leave clues because the prisoner's dilemma is in full swing. If you leave clues, odds are your several weeks/months of torturous levelling to make a character who is a big sentient lockpick now amounts to being KBed every time you log on with barebones PVP RP as "revenge" for having the audacity to commit a crime against "THE PROTAGONIST". Whereas if you don't, then you have won! You master criminal! They can't even track you because of your skills and you can keep RPing in the settlement and building a story, and all it costs is one person not being able to stop you.

For the sake of not being @ at a lot, I'm being hyperbolic but you can see where I'm coming from I hope.

The ideal here is to meet in the middle with QB victims responding to the interaction and the QBer working with them - and the fact we have some people who think expecting that is tantamount to psychological abuse has genuinely enraged me but I'll keep my personal feelings to one side as much as I can - but I don't know how to implement that without more DM oversight or a gigantic shift in server culture cos like... KB for QB is fairly ingrained.

[Deryliss]

This again just sounds like 'I can't fathom a world in which quarterbreakers can ever be caught'. I think, in retrospect, a lot of quarterbreaking players or advocates seem to regard QB characters as almost like a plot device, a metaphysical concept there to just push forward plot and create drama. This puts the person piloting the QB character in the role of an author or DM, and therefore gives them the narrative power over the story.

The issue comes from the QB player not being impartial, or interested in telling a compelling story. Again, as mentioned above, they don't want to lose the time investment on their QB character and therefore don't ever want that character to be caught.

A story in which a criminal character is never in any risk of being caught is a bad story.

[Ninjimmy]

The fact that you read that and your takeaway isn't to argue against caught=character dies permanantly and is rolled is exactly why we have this problem of people not wanting to get caught. Like, PERFECT example of why this problem exists and player contribution to it.

Your weeks of character investment and play-time is invalid, you broke into my house so time to start from lvl 3 again, bucko!

[Deryliss]

The fact that you read that and your takeaway isn't to argue against caught=character dies permanantly and is rolled is exactly why we have this problem of people not wanting to get caught. Like, PERFECT example of why this problem exists and player contribution to it.

Your weeks of character investment and play-time is invalid, you broke into my house so time to start from lvl 3 again, bucko!

Alright, I'll bite.

Yep, it sucks to be exposed and targeted and killbashed until you have to roll or retreat to Andunor. Its unfortunately how a lot of stories end, especially those trying to do controversial things on the surface (animators, warlocks, hexblades, etc).

Noone likes to have a big 'kill me' sign painted on their heads, but everyone who engages in one of the in-universe controversial conducts above is warned that this is a likely consequence. Not all get caught in such a bad way, but some do, and it sucks for them.

Whenever a player is targeted and killbashed for playing a hexblade (and I mean, repeatedly killbashed, hunted down mercilessly, scry-ganked every time they show up in a surface area), that's a huge, insanely awful violation of the Be Nice rule. It's something I would never do, and I would gladly stand in defense of the people being targeted like this.

So on to Quarterbreaking.

I don't want Quarterbreakers to be targeted and killbashed. I don't want Quarterbreaking to be removed or cease to exist either (see my proposal to make them a PRC, even). I do feel - especially after reading this thread - that not only is the 'power dynamic' 100% weighted in favor of the quarterbreaker, it is also somehow seen as a good thing? That a perpetrator of a crime / unwanted thing is fully shielded from any consequence that they do not intentionally bring on themselves, to enrich their own story on their own terms?

There -has- to be a middle ground. There has to be a way for Quarterbreakers to fear capture after performing a heist. There has to be a trace left of who did it. There has to be a shred of consideration given to the character AND the player that got stolen from. There has to be a way to leave the victim with something more to work with than simply "I got stolen from".

So no, I'm not an evil monster that wants all the quarterbreakers lynched for wanting to tell a story. I'm just wanting for the victims to have a place in that story.

[Ninjimmy]

Alright, I'll bite.

Yep, it sucks to be exposed and targeted and killbashed until you have to roll or retreat to Andunor. Its unfortunately how a lot of stories end, especially those trying to do controversial things on the surface (animators, warlocks, hexblades, etc).

Noone likes to have a big 'kill me' sign painted on their heads, but everyone who engages in one of the in-universe controversial conducts above is warned that this is a likely consequence. Not all get caught in such a bad way, but some do, and it sucks for them.

Whenever a player is targeted and killbashed for playing a hexblade (and I mean, repeatedly killbashed, hunted down mercilessly, scry-ganked every time they show up in a surface area), that's a huge, insanely awful violation of the Be Nice rule. It's something I would never do, and I would gladly stand in defense of the people being targeted like this.

So on to Quarterbreaking.

I don't want Quarterbreakers to be targeted and killbashed. I don't want Quarterbreaking to be removed or cease to exist either (see my proposal to make them a PRC, even). I do feel - especially after reading this thread - that not only is the 'power dynamic' 100% weighted in favor of the quarterbreaker, it is also somehow seen as a good thing? That a perpetrator of a crime / unwanted thing is fully shielded from any consequence that they do not intentionally bring on themselves, to enrich their own story on their own terms?

There -has- to be a middle ground. There has to be a way for Quarterbreakers to fear capture after performing a heist. There has to be a trace left of who did it. There has to be a shred of consideration given to the character AND the player that got stolen from. There has to be a way to leave the victim with something more to work with than simply "I got stolen from".

So no, I'm not an evil monster that wants all the quarterbreakers lynched for wanting to tell a story. I'm just wanting for the victims to have a place in that story.

I wouldn't say evil monster, it's just a difference of opinion, but our difference seems to be you'd rather all the power to decide whether or not a crime story gets told is in the hands of the proposed victims. Which I can relate to but since that rule doesn't extend to any other forms of conflict, I can't agree with it.

Also, just pointing out, we're treating stealing a guy's statue as an equivalent evil to corrupting the souls of the dead and working with actual devils to obliterate mankind.

It needs a middle-ground, on this I think the majority agree, but if we're compelling QBers to leave evidence to be found, I'd also want something in place to prevent it just devolving into Whack-a-thief.

Otherwise, all you get is the power balance going 100% to the QB "victim" which amounts to a fair more dire consequence than losing some imagined currency. If you want the thieves to take an L, then you need rules so that giving someone some RP isn't equivalent to typing -delete_character twice.

[FallenDabus]

I actually like the idea of QB remaining, but the design implementation opens the door to the host of issues covered.

The big change I believe would be very helpful is that QB requires a "risk" buy in. The first time you attempt to break into a home by either bashing it or picking the locks, you should get dialogue pop-up message. "Quarterbreaking on Arelith requires you to accept the Mark of the Thief. This comes with X, Y and Z risk. Do you wish to accept the Mark of the Thief".

The Mark of the Thief can function akin to the Mark of Despair, meaning that there are mechanics unique to characters who have the mark in effect. You can even create a cooldown, so that after X hours of in-game playtime the Mark of the Thief expires.

Anyway, with a fundamental mechanic in place you can get creative and constructively approach the mechanics for thief character. I do not consider this just a "lets find ways for it to be punishing because QB characters are the worse" but actually an opportunity to better support criminal rp by making it both more enjoyable and worthwhile, but also dangerous.

NPC Thief's Guild could become a thing. If you want to QB into a home, you first need to place a "burglary intent" on a home. Let's say this costs 25% of the quarter rent. Within 72 hours any additionally placed "burglary intent" on the same quarter costs the full 100%.

If you then QB into the home, any item you take gets the "stolen" item tag and the "undropable" item tag. These tags prevent you from removing an item from your inventory, or selling it. Instead, these need to be given to a fence NPC of the Thief's Guild and they get added to the Black Market. The previous owner can talk to that NPC, and buy it back within 72 hours for a % of the item value price.

If the victim buys it back, the QBer gets 80% of the gold and the other 20% go to the NPC Fence.

If the victim does not buy it back, the QBer gets the item and the "stolen" and "undropable" tags are removed.

As for risks, it could be that the Mark of the Thief means burglaries in a settlement you have pariah status with cost significantly more. Perhaps always 100% of the quarter rent. Exiled may push it to 250%.

If you conducted a QB you have a 72 hour cooldown that if you get PvPed your bank account can get -125.000 gold. This pauses if you are not logged in. This can drop bellow the -1000, so that it can not be gamed by moving gold around in a faction account. As you can not make direct deposits into a faction account, but need to transfer from your character bank account.

If you get assassinated by an Assassins Guld contract, you can not QB for two rl weeks.

All the specifics here were quickly pulled out of thin air. I am sure this could be done in a far better way. But I think there are great ways to make both QB and criminal rp work, instead of just gutting it as the current implementation is too simple and abusable. Things like making sure that a QBer can not just open the door for a non QBer to then take stuff has to be looked at too.

[Deryliss]

Also, just pointing out, we're treating stealing a guy's statue as an equivalent evil to corrupting the souls of the dead and working with actual devils to obliterate mankind.

I think we're finally coming to a middle ground. I just want to address this point.

In-universe, those things are obviously in completely different scales. Stealing from someone vs corrupting the souls of the dead has no possible comparison within the framework of the setting.

My comment was in relation to ooc actions, specifically repeated scry-ganking and killbashing. Its not a fun time whenever it happens, whether its for animation, hexblades or quarterbreakers. But at the same time, we do happily tell players who are asking about those classes or playstyles on discord that such retaliation is a possibility. We give them a 'caveat emptor', and that's good enough. We give them the protection of the Be Nice rule and that's it.

Why is that not sufficient for a player wishing to engage in Quarterbreaking? Why is being warned 'there will be consequences, and those consequences could include retaliation, but don't worry, excessive retaliation will be punishable under the Be Nice rule, just report if you feel its a problem' not enough of a shield for the QB playstyle when it is just fine for other playstyles?

[Ninjimmy]

I think we're finally coming to a middle ground. I just want to address this point.

In-universe, those things are obviously in completely different scales. Stealing from someone vs corrupting the souls of the dead has no possible comparison within the framework of the setting.

My comment was in relation to ooc actions, specifically repeated scry-ganking and killbashing. Its not a fun time whenever it happens, whether its for animation, hexblades or quarterbreakers. But at the same time, we do happily tell players who are asking about those classes or playstyles on discord that such retaliation is a possibility. We give them a 'caveat emptor', and that's good enough. We give them the protection of the Be Nice rule and that's it.

Why is that not sufficient for a player wishing to engage in Quarterbreaking? Why is being warned 'there will be consequences, and those consequences could include retaliation, but don't worry, excessive retaliation will be punishable under the Be Nice rule, just report if you feel its a problem' not enough of a shield for the QB playstyle when it is just fine for other playstyles?

I sorta started at a middle ground but to answer this - For the exact same reason you feel it isn't enough of a shield for the victims of QB. It's all relative and somewhat subjective and relies on behaviour you can't guarantee,

[Deryliss]

Yup, that is exactly why "just report it" is such an unsatisfactory answer. For either side. What's bad for the goose is bad for the gander.

And to clarify, at no point did I say I wanted the power dynamic to shift 100% towards the victim. That would be just as bad. To imply that I want 'the power to decide', isn't accurate, and if anything in this long conversation seemed to imply that then allow me to categorically correct it by saying its not true, I do not want that.

[Ninjimmy]

While appreciated, a number of your proposals (and others) do just that - at least in my opinion.

And also, the fact in universe that petty and cosmic crimes are treated as equal is why I doubt in this SPECIFIC instance Be Nice is unlikely to be well observed

[Cybren]

The problem is not with quarter breaking, the problem is RP-less pvp in stealing items from the chest.

Solution that has been proposed like a million times: Lower the DC on doors, make them *slightly* easier to break, and make the chest itself fixed 127 DC for all quarters, or just make it unbreakable entirely.

That's a great solution, and pretty much what I'd love ot see implemented - but I've talked to the staff about it and it's unlikely to ever happen as it means revisiting every quarter on the server and doing intensive amounts of work. Sad times.

I don't think it necessarily requires changing every quarter. OR rather, it only requires changing every quarter because irongron has stated a desire for storage to remain limited both in general and specifically as a way to add value to quarters. But if storage was made more abundant elsewhere (vastly expanded citizen storage, parallel bank storage that anyone can rent, in-inventory storage items, or whatever other method someone may desire) then it would deprecate the utility of quarter-storage such that quarter DCs could be lowered, new quarters could be introduced that do not feature storages at all, etc, which would be more conducive to spy/burglar/other non-griefing types of quarterbreaking gameplay. The individual storage chests wouldn't need to be touched at all.



As an aside, I want to dispute this:

I have never, not once, ever, seen this enforced.

And you never will, as long as the thief players choose to keep their punishments private, as is their rights as a player. The DM team will never disclose punishments they dole out and we should all be thankful of that.

I am not, in fact, thankful for this. The idea that punishments should solely be private seems incredibly misguided. It serves to build resentment and increaser rumor mongering. If someone behaves in a way that is damaging to the community and requires punishment then it is in the community's interest to be made aware of that. If people hold grudges against that person that is, quite literally, a natural consequence of their own actions, and if they have an interest in repairing their relationship to the community that necessarily requires that they publicly confront their actions. If people are treating others unfairly as a consequence of past behavior that has been corrected that, itself, can be addressed. Not every action needs to be reported, such as warnings or temporary time-outs, but there should be a certain line where behavior that is exceedingly toxic or disruptive is publicly acknowledged.

[Curve]

1- Public punishment will never happen.

2- There is some divergence in the the way quarter breaking is handled versus how disarm and pickpocket is handled, no arguing that. But, with that said there are differences:

Having your weapon or staff taken is crippling for the character, having your stack of healing potions taken from a character can be devastating to certain aspects of how the game is played. A level 3 with some gear and max PP could wreck havoc on characters without spot.

These are not the only differences, but they are significant. Now, what your character has in their inventory is safe from being stolen in any manner. But, the extra stuff your character has in their chest is not. That can represent a lot of time spent in the game and this is where a big divergence of opinions happens.

-Chests and extra character wealth should be unsafe and impermanent because reasons (to value and allow thief roleplay, because there should be inherent risk to wealth and that wealth should be able to be culled, things collected in game are not that important, blabla)
-Chests and extra character wealth should be safe and unassailable because reasons (time spent collecting, emotional value, fairness, and so on)

I personally prefer that quarter breaking should be allowed as it currently is. I will admit that I prefer a more hard core outlook to guide Arelith and I am generally unbothered by character setbacks in terms of wealth and the collection of resources or meaningful fixtures. But, that's just me. I log in hoping some one took their time to harm my characters so that I have something to react to.

That brings us to the most reasonable point being made in favor of changing things, that often times there is zero recourse or way of interacting with the theft. I can understand the argument here, despite not really finding issue in it.

Would people be satisfied if there was some kind of rule like, 'Players quarterbreaking/stealing from chests under stealth/whatever are required to do X'? What X should be is up for debate. Could be leaving a marker, or vaguely leaving some clue as to the identify of the thief.

For what it's worth I think that this,

You got to play this up in character. You as the player may be frustrated, but have your guy pause everytime he sees a statue with a comment like, "I use to have one just like this in my house" or crumbling into a bench and sobbing or refusing to go into your house for fear of your safety being violated again or any and all sorts.

Think about this from the perspective of real life, right? You get robbed. You tell people. They pity you and they move on. That's a pretty accurate depiction of the human experience.

No ones going to push your roleplay for you, you have to do that.

Show up to every and all guard meeting eager to plead your case. Hound the government figures for stricter laws, etc. Roleplay won't get your fixture back, of course (probably) but it will give you some quality roleplay. Lemons lemonade. That sort of thing.

Is v good advice and I would only add to it that trying to let go of the value these items hold in your eyes can be very healthy for you as a role-player. It has been that way for me.

[-XXX-]

These are not the only differences, but they are significant. Now, what your character has in their inventory is safe from being stolen in any manner. But, the extra stuff your character has in their chest is not. That can represent a lot of time spent in the game and this is where a big divergence of opinions happens.

-Chests and extra character wealth should be unsafe and impermanent because reasons (to value and allow thief roleplay, because there should be inherent risk to wealth and that wealth should be able to be culled, things collected in game are not that important, blabla)
-Chests and extra character wealth should be safe and unassailable because reasons (time spent collecting, emotional value, fairness, and so on)

That's nice and all, but let me reiterate and point out for the third time - regardless of what the desired direction might be, there's a glaring inconsistency in this right now.
While most characters might be a subject to theft, STR based characters are absolutely impervious to it and this entire issue along with this topic just isn't a concern for their players in the slightest ATM.