SD PvX

[Beneidalus]

I've a character who has taken 13 levels of Shadow-dancer for the Epic Shadowlord Feat; overall character level 27.

It may very well be an unpopular opinion and not the intent of the Dev Team, but the -guard function the shadow has, seems a bit immersion breaking. The fact that it can work against ancient liches and dragons alike, but come a player-character, and it becomes almost entirely useless, just really doesn't sit well with me. Sort of a weird disconnect, when logically, one has to wonder why it doesn't work? Especially considering, as shadow dancer currently stands, it's VERY GOOD at pve. Too good, I should think.

Now, am I saying -guard should work in PvP? Absolutely not. I honestly feel like -guard shouldn't exist at all. I don't like mechanics that exclusively work in pve or pvp. Strays more into the realm of MMO mechanics, than Persistent World mechanics.

So alternatively? If having close proximity with the shadow can grant sneak attack, what about the feats Self Concealment I-V ? At level 3 shadowdancer, self-concealment II, scaling up each three levels afterwards. Self-Concealment III at level 6 SD, Self-Concealment IV at level 9 SD, and Self-Concealment V at level 12 SD. In this way, you just have a non-dispelling form of Concealment, as opposed to almost universal pve mitigation, and zero pvp advantage (bar killing/banishing/distancing the shadow).

Additionally, the shadow could probably use some bonuses to its stealth. For a shadow, it's remarkably un-stealthy. Maybe epic skill focus at its inception (at level three), and regular skill focus / Stealthy feats, at Epic Shadow Lord. Maybe some Discipline foci as well? Beyond this, it's been a blast to see some shadowy character love lately, and I've thoroughly enjoyed the ride thus far

*Drools in anticipation of the shadow mage update*

[BegoneThoth]

I don't want to imagine PvE without - guard. It's one of the best things.

[TimeAdept]

I would use a 5% reward to beg the devs to keep -guard in.

[With The Sky Below My Feet]

Can't comment on SD, but this really seems to be more of a -guard peeve.

-Guard is cool. Not because it feels nicely OP to stack SAs when you're -guarded, but because it's an effective measure to allow more diversified groups. It closes gaps between people who aren't able to, or don't want to plan and build an overly effective character, and optimised builds. It closes level gaps. It closes gaps between classes or build combinations, when it comes to e.g. compensating AC/HP.

I get what you mean when you say that there's a disconnect between PvE and PvP, but when it comes to being able to have a good time in PvE with others and RP/adventure across the board, with bigger level differences or varying build preferences, -guard is really a good addition.

That disconnect is a small price to pay for that imo.

[Cybernet21]

I also like -guard,but perhaps a middle ground on this would be pehaps making so guard can be used only if the person guarding has some sort of shield equiped. It would fix what the OP may see it as Overpowered for SD's since shadows dont have shields

[Ork]

I don't think there needs to be a middle ground in this. OP dislikes guard. OP shouldn't use guard then. Guard is not an ability, guard is a feature solely focused on the PvE experience.

[Griefmaker]

Guard is one of the best things to be introduced on Arelith. You have a PC who is supposed to be a guard for another? Guess what? You can actually throw your shield/weapon/body before the other person...as you are meant to.

Yes, there are some other unintended affects too, but they are minuscule compared to the RP and mechanical benefit.

EDIT: Don't fix what isn't broken!

[Hunter548]

Regardless of the merits of -guard (Which other posters have covered very effectively and I largely agree with), giving self-concealment for free would be really strong.

[Shadowy Reality]

I very much agree with the OP on the disparity between PvP and PvE for SDs.

Those 17 levels are really useless in PvP.

[Iceborn]

I wouldn't mind seeing something like a damage shield/soak or other mechanic to be added in place to represent the protection of the shadow (as long as the shadow is out there and close enough, let's say), that works exclusively for PvP.

While I agree that the -guard feature makes a weird disparity of players and non players in our IC world where everybody should be equal, there's nothing that can be really done about it. NPCs will be NPCs until a DM puppets them.

[MissEvelyn]

Don't fix what isn't broken!

This. If you weaken -guard or take it away entirely, you'll render some archetypes completely useless in PvE combat. Sneak Attack and Ranged reliant types will become so bad that you might as well not play them.

[Beneidalus]

Almost sounds like sneaky types just need an overhaul altogether, huh

[Shadowy Reality]

I feel like this is less about -guard and more about SD in general. Great in PvE, terrible in PvP.

SD is HiPs and the shadow, that's it. There's nothing else to SD, Shadow Evade is alright, at level 15 it's like 12/+4 and +4AC, but nothing off the charts.

Of all these, none works when PvP strikes. Your shadow is ignored, your HiPs isn't really that important (and a True Seeing scroll bypasses that) and your Shadow Evade surely isn't worth 15+ levels. What I feel the OP is musing is that maybe SDs should have some of their PvE power toned down and something given to their PvP power.

I had thought about something in the lines as described above, give them further concealment when in Shadow Evade and their shadow is nearby, or go further and give them Shadow immunities when both those conditions are met.

[Xarge VI]

I feel the need to say here that the shadow summon has crippling strike. Good thing for archer Shadowdancers in PvP as everyone but the most strength oriented characters stroll around at the edge encumbrance.

[Beneidalus]

It actually doesn't help archer shadow-dancers, or anyone, much at all, because (for the archers) every time they land a hit, the shadow is going to teleport right back next to them. So unless you're shooting arrows from 10ft away or less, from your target (literally the worst distance for an archer to be), your shadow will never even reach what you're shooting at. Not only this, but the shadow has mediocre AB. It's not going to hit much. It's a PvE punching bag, and outside of that, nearly useless.

Like Shadowy Reality pointed out, this is more about giving it a PvP foot to stand on, as the class presently doesn't have one.

EDIT: I guess, not to mention Protection from Negative Energy, which just makes you entirely immune to Crippling Strike.

[One Two Three Five]

At the risk of derailing:How about Epic Shadowlord exempts the shadowdancer from the effects of true seeing? Then you at least don't lose your one thing to a level 6 spell.