Citizenship

[Richørd]

I think it's poopy that settlements don't have access to a full list of registered citizens.

[Scurvy Cur]

It’s necessary for the election system to be dynamic, as the admin team wants it to be.

We used to have reviewable citizen rolls, but it led to the use of this information by standing governments to blanket exile political opponents, thereby deeply entrenching incumbent governments. The decision was made a few years back that this was too contrary to the desire for settlements to change hands now and then.

[Nitro]

Yeah, used to be that people before an election would go through the citizen list and just get rid of everyone they weren't sure would vote for them. It'd also make it impossible to infiltrate a settlement anonymously if your name was on a list, and would be an easy way to out harpers by checking if they're on the list after they vote.

[Lunargent]

It's for the best, since settlement leaders were using it to oust anyone not in their 'club'/discord and give favors to their friends, not to mention push out any competition that might arise.

And, I mean, everyone knows that's bad play, right? Who would want to do that?

[Subutai]

While I get the point of that, it sounds like an absolutely wonderful RP opportunity. Governments do this kind of thing literally all the time, and working together to overthrow a government that does it could be a ton of fun.

[Astral]

So dont bring back the function to remove citizenship - just give the settlement leader access to a list of citizens.

[Nitro]

That's still wildly open to abuse. "Oh hey, that guy might vote against us, let's just tell him to revoke his citizenship or we'll make him pariah and kill him each time he comes into town" or "Hey that guy isn't a citizen, let's revoke his property" or "Hey let's scry the name of everyone on our citizen list so we can out disguises really easily".

[Lunargent]

While I get the point of that, it sounds like an absolutely wonderful RP opportunity. Governments do this kind of thing literally all the time, and working together to overthrow a government that does it could be a ton of fun.

Been there, it wasn't.

So dont bring back the function to remove citizenship - just give the settlement leader access to a list of citizens.

Except with -scry and speedies, giving someone's name for free is essentially the same, as you can still get exiled. Having the citizenship roll hidden levels the playing field, giving no side a particular advantage. The government has to work to find who their opponents are, and the opponents have to take care to remain hidden from the government.

[Scurvy Cur]

Except that if utilized fully, governments become impossible to topple. You just go through and purge down to about 8-10 secure votes every election cycle. And that’s exactly how this system was used last time it was around.

Moreover removing the ability to pull citizenship is insufficient: you can still largely block people from voting by exiling. This was another matter the team considered a couple years back, and it was also deemed undesirable because it made bluff and 25+ character levels pretty much mandatory to be involved in politics.

Let me turn that around on you though: think of the absolutely wonderful RP that’s generated when settlements are regularly contested. No victory and no defeat under a fluid system lasts any longer than it takes the opposition to get together the support that they need to retaliate. Hell, last summer Cordor’s government changed hands twice in the space of about 20 hours + 1 election cycle.

I think it’s pretty clear which system generates the most wonderful RP.

[MajorArcana]

Even if the list of citizens was put back in, it still wouldn't tell you who the Beanites your enemies are, unless they've made themselves blatantly known.

Having the list available is a potential invitation for powers to be abused and to make things severely unfun for whomever happens to not be a social RP constant in the town, or aren't active in OOC cliques (such as settlement/faction Discord servers).

Additionally, it's totally not suspect (and I'm sure you only have the best intentions in mind with the accessibility of the citizenship list) when this topic was brought up immediately after a certain someone triggered elections in a certain somewhere.

[Zavandar]

a system like this would allow a small group of people to indefinitely run a settlement

[Dean]

Keeping status quo in a settlement is detrimental to an ever changing roleplay experience. This mechanic of knowing who is a citizen, and in the past removing citizenship, allowed people to game the system and the rules to stay in power which thus stagnates the settlement and a section of the server. Settlements are not quarters and should not be handed around between friends who may or may not do something with it.

When a settlement is dead it is very obvious, Guldorand for the longest time was lacking in activity (This is not me saying that it is lacking right now.) And Myon has many times gone through cycles of popularity and decline. The RP dries up and disappears and whoever owns it tends to try and keep hold of it despite not using it as a facility to create RP. Instead it is used to enrich the pockets of whoever owns it monetarily and little else comes of it but maintaining a boring status quo.

This stifles RP as much as it would in a more active city like Guldorand and Cordor, it is counter-productive to an evolving server environment and in the hands of the right players can be abused to keep themselves in power. Whether or not they can remove citizenship.

[JubJub]

It’s necessary for the election system to be dynamic, as the admin team wants it to be.

We used to have reviewable citizen rolls, but it led to the use of this information by standing governments to blanket exile political opponents, thereby deeply entrenching incumbent governments. The decision was made a few years back that this was too contrary to the desire for settlements to change hands now and then.

The new system isn't perfect but thankfully it did eliminate this. I lost count of how many times I was exiled from Wharftown right before an election. I mean if the exile rp was good it might of been different, but usually the exile wasn't even good rp but more of a "we don't like you get out." thing. And you left or got pummeled. Not being able to see the list sort of sucks at times but allowing people to see it was worse.

With myon the issue usually is many times no one wants the job, I remember Vanion saying he was only coronal this long because no one wanted the job and no one ever called an election. Myon always seems like as soon as the place gets active something happens and half the people leave.

[Memelord]

It's for the best, since settlement leaders were using it to oust anyone not in their 'club'/discord and give favors to their friends,

I would just like to point out that there is absolutely nothing wrong with nepotism, favoritism or outright corruption in politics IG. I would actually prefer to see even more social stratification, enforced through RP rather than mechanics, in the game. Lack of access to the citizenship list just means that these things have to be based off other criteria than citizenship (giving perks to loyal voter bases, giving legal exemptions to civil servants or local heroes, etc.)

[MissEvelyn]

I'm not certain how it works right now, but exiling a citizen should take more effort than exiling a foreigner. Perhaps let it take up an extra exile slot or similar? This should, however, be a no-brainer.

It doesn't make sense for the leaders to exile their own citizens for the reason that "I don't like you" without severe repercussions that follow when you have the privilege of being a citizen.

[Royal Blood]

Yeah exiling all political opposition that's awful.

0_0

Though it says on the wiki that maintaining a choke hold on a settlement is a viable tactic with exiles.
Whether it's good for RP or not I guess is up to debate, but it's not a rule break. In some cases it can make a lot of RP I guess assuming the same exiled person is willing to engage with it and doesn't just give up.

The person in power has an obvious advantage if there is a core group that has no issue exiling people.

The other issue is I guess people don't care, if they get exiled from somewhere it's easier to just go away and not care. Exiling is like that Disarm ability it's not illegal but if you don't do it right it sorta leaves a sour taste. Like exiling people without letting them get anything out of their quarter etc. That just doesn't go over well. Like you're exiled, and we revoke your quarter, so you lose everything you put into it like stuff in the chest and fixtures and now the place you're rping at is blocked from you.

[ReverentBlade]

A system with mechanics that favor incumbents requires tools outside the system to overthrow. This usually means DM interaction, which can be a fickle thing. I do not favor returning any systems to a state that favors the status quo.

[MajorArcana]

-snip-

Exiling is like that Disarm ability it's not illegal but if you don't do it right it sorta leaves a sour taste. Like exiling people without letting them get anything out of their quarter etc. That just doesn't go over well. Like you're exiled, and we revoke your quarter, so you lose everything you put into it like stuff in the chest and fixtures and now the place you're rping at is blocked from you.

It's one thing to get exiled for a long string of offences with multiple happenstances of butting heads ICly (such as committing acts of treason and threatening diplomatic relations between settlements).

It's another to casually skim a list of citizens and arbitrarily exile them with no RP history off the little inkling idea that they may not vote for you.

[Lunargent]

Yes, the thread is about the citizenship roll and its removal, not the exile mechanic.

[Royal Blood]

The op posted about a list of registered citizens. The counter point to making that was that a leader would just exile off of that list. With the counter point being the list doesn't matter you can just exile people anyways so it really revolves around the exile mechanic anyways. I was responding to previous posters suggesting the exile mechanic ought to scraped or that it was wrong to use the exile mechanic to choke hold a settlement.

[MajorArcana]

The op posted about a list of registered citizens. The counter point to making that was that a leader would just exile off of that list. With the counter point being the list doesn't matter you can just exile people anyways so it really revolves around the exile mechanic anyways. I was responding to previous posters suggesting the exile mechanic ought to scraped or that it was wrong to use the exile mechanic to choke hold a settlement.

Sounds a lot like you only think that because you, on an OOC level, don't believe your character's own IC exile was justified for a few dirty-laundry aired reasons.

Everyone's entitled to an opinion, I guess. I just feel like yours was a bit of a jab, and the thoughts not really cohesive enough to be strung together in a manner that reflected the purpose.

[Astral]

The op posted about a list of registered citizens. The counter point to making that was that a leader would just exile off of that list. With the counter point being the list doesn't matter you can just exile people anyways so it really revolves around the exile mechanic anyways. I was responding to previous posters suggesting the exile mechanic ought to scraped or that it was wrong to use the exile mechanic to choke hold a settlement.

Sounds a lot like you only think that because you, on an OOC level, don't believe your character's own IC exile was justified for a few dirty-laundry aired reasons.

Everyone's entitled to an opinion, I guess. I just feel like yours was a bit of a jab, and the thoughts not really cohesive enough to be strung together in a manner that reflected the purpose.

Please stop derailing this thread from the OP and dont use it to target people with accusations. I really REALLY dont want this thread locked yet. We're talking about list of citizens. Not talking about exiling mechanics here. Exiling political oppositions is fine and not a rule break even if they are citizens, and it can be done just the same way without a list of citizens. We got that much covered by now and the wiki says so as well.

[Reallylongunneededplayername]

"Hey that guy isn't a citizen, let's revoke his property"

I honestly always been a "Citizens first" kind of leader. You want a house in Cordor? Become citizen.
I think it should actually be that way mechanically, You are a citizen, You have certain rights.
I think owning a house in that city should be a right reserved for citizens.

[Nitro]

The problem with that line of thinking is that there's way more players than there are available housing. If Timmy wants to get into RP in Guldorand but is only able to find housing in Cordor, does that mean he should get kicked out and just live without storage because the Cordor leaders didn't want any filthy non-citizens grubbing up their housing?

[Bibliophile]

You wouldn't be living without storage. There is now the bank vault storage. Yes, it is less than a chest in a home, but it is still storage that was never offered before.