The Chest of Death

[Maladus]

I just picked up a writ I've never seen before. I thought, why not give it a shot because I like seeing new things. Thoramind's Workshop. Then this happened:



A Chest managed to kill me in like two or three rounds of combat. A paralytic poison with a DC of 16 in a dungeon where the other two enemies I'd seen were no trouble at all for a writ that IIRC rewards 500 gold?

That chest is way overtuned.

[Void]

The damage might be a bit high. The poison thing seems to be not very different from Gelatnious Cubes in the sewers, though. You really don't want to f ight those early on because they can paralyze and kill you.

Now... Paralysis can be countered with -pray, and wand of freedom of movement. If the chest is not hasted, you should be able to deal with it from distance.

[AstralUniverse]

Is that a new low level writ inside the city of Cordor? This mob should NEVER have this much ab and damage if it is.

[Definately Not A Mimic]

Only been in there once but I'm fairly certain the chests don't move. You don't technically have to fight them.

[ltlukoziuz]

Yeah, a few recent dungeons have "high threat mobs for a challenge/breaking the expectations of 'murder everything' which can be just walked around" (and even older, like Ancient Armour random spawn in Last King tomb). That's completely normal by server standards

[Maladus]

The damage might be a bit high. The poison thing seems to be not very different from Gelatnious Cubes in the sewers, though. You really don't want to f ight those early on because they can paralyze and kill you.

Now... Paralysis can be countered with -pray, and wand of freedom of movement. If the chest is not hasted, you should be able to deal with it from distance.

While I agree that they can be dealt with if you have properly prepared. My point is that I got absolutely dumpstered out of left field by this thing and was not expecting it based on what I had experienced with the other enemies in the dungeon.

Yeah, a few recent dungeons have "high threat mobs for a challenge/breaking the expectations of 'murder everything' which can be just walked around" (and even older, like Ancient Armour random spawn in Last King tomb). That's completely normal by server standards

Whether it's server standards or not, it's not very fun to suddenly get destroyed by a mob with no indication that it's going to happen.

[Void]

While I agree that they can be dealt with if you have properly prepared. My point is that I got absolutely dumpstered out of left field by this thing and was not expecting it based on what I had experienced with the other enemies in the dungeon.

There are few other places which host powerful optional enemies. If the chest is immobile as mentioned by another poster, than it would be one of them. in this case the idea is to run away as soon as you realize that you can't handle it, and this can be done by praying if you're paralyzed.

Technically, this is supposed to be a semi-sim world, and not a carefully constructed obstacle course which is carefully matched by your level. In a full sim world, you'd be able to run into a powerful enemy in a "beginner" dungeon, and that can still happen if that other enemy is going to be a player.

In the end, however, this sort of things is for devs to decide. I like the sudden powerful opponents that do not match the range of the dungeon. Keeps character on their toes.

[garrbear758]

Technically, this is supposed to be a semi-sim world, and not a carefully constructed obstacle course which is carefully matched by your level. In a full sim world, you'd be able to run into a powerful enemy in a "beginner" dungeon, and that can still happen if that other enemy is going to be a player.

This. Arelith is not a theme park.

Bad things happen to good adventurers is probably the closest thing we have to a motto on this server.

[Maladus]

Ok. I think it's bad design personally but if it's not going to change so be it.

[MissEvelyn]

Technically, this is supposed to be a semi-sim world, and not a carefully constructed obstacle course which is carefully matched by your level. In a full sim world, you'd be able to run into a powerful enemy in a "beginner" dungeon, and that can still happen if that other enemy is going to be a player.

In the end, however, this sort of things is for devs to decide. I like the sudden powerful opponents that do not match the range of the dungeon. Keeps character on their toes.

I very much enjoy this as well. It makes Arelith feel like a living and breathing world when unexpected things happen, just like they would in a real magical Forgotten Realms world.

As Arelith was never meant to be an MMO, I find that unexpected and sudden dangers are welcome additions

[Async]

There's a difference between fun, healthy challenge and overtuned creatures. This is the latter in my opinion. It looks like the creature has two attacks per round (+17/+12) based on the screenshot above. If that's the case, combined with the damage it dishes out, it's too strong given the level of the writ.

For those that disagree, I advise revisiting the creatures of similarly-leveled areas.

[ZeroPointEnergy]

It kind of looks like you were soloing anyway. A lot of these powerful mobs can be dealt with friends.

[MissEvelyn]

There's a difference between fun, healthy challenge and overtuned creatures. This is the latter in my opinion. It looks like the creature has two attacks per round (+17/+12) based on the screenshot above. If that's the case, combined with the damage it dishes out, it's too strong given the level of the writ.

For those that disagree, I advise revisiting the creatures of similarly-leveled areas.

This is offset by the creature being completely immobile (it's a weaker version of a Mimic). It's usually in the middle of the room, which means you can safely walk around it and completely ignore it.
Hence the creature is completely optional, and you don't have to fight it if you don't want to.

[Void]

There's a difference between fun, healthy challenge and overtuned creatures. This is the latter in my opinion. It looks like the creature has two attacks per round (+17/+12) based on the screenshot above. If that's the case, combined with the damage it dishes out, it's too strong given the level of the writ.

IMO you'd have a point if its AB was 80, the damage per hit was a hundred it was permahasted, with permanent concealment and permanent trueseeing while also being immune to physical damage and magic and coated in acid sheath and death armor.

But this is pretty much on the levels with the normal perfectly average monster you can encounter in the world.

Like mentioned it is not a MMO, so a writ level does not guarantee that you'll be completely safe. And if it is immobile, you can just ignore it and run away once hurt.

Honestly, in the safe area of Cordor there are things that can flatline you on early levels in a blink by dealing 250 damage. Monsters roam around and occasionally reach unintended areas while chasing someone. One of the funniest examples so far was being attacked by a bullette on a second floor of Andunor hub while crafting. This sort of thing happens.

[Async]

This is offset by the creature being completely immobile (it's a weaker version of a Mimic). It's usually in the middle of the room, which means you can safely walk around it and completely ignore it.
Hence the creature is completely optional, and you don't have to fight it if you don't want to.

Thanks for pointing this out! I completely missed this when I was bodied by it myself. That makes more sense and alleviates a lot of the concern I had with the creature.

Like mentioned it is not a MMO, so a writ level does not guarantee that you'll be completely safe. And if it is immobile, you can just ignore it and run away once hurt.

Nobody in this thread is asking for guaranteed safety. On the contrary I enjoy the mechanical challenge of the server. Plus, isn't arguing for dungeons to be more challenging more in alignment with an MMO? Not that I mind as I'll have fun on the server either way.

[Paint]

I don't mind getting my face kicked in every once and awhile. I might more audibly complain if permadeath was mandatory, but actions have consequences, and adventuring should be dangerous. I think there's a few enemies with some pretty high DC poisons on Skal early level too, actually. You don't -have- to fight them, but encountering them at the level recommended for the writ can be fatal if you're not properly prepared. And if it's your first time playing through something, and you don't expect it, you probably won't be. There's actually a few low-level dungeons on arelith where I can think of some interesting things happening that might get you killed if you're balancing on the knife's edge with your current level/equipment for a writ.

If you're in a party, it can give a bit of opportunity for some RP, and if you're solo, it's a good reminder to keep a few tricks in your back pocket for a rainy day.

I will admit that sometimes I've died in some pretty embarrassing ways in dungeons and really hoped nobody found my corpse before I had a chance to respawn so I didn't have to explain myself.

[Void]

Plus, isn't arguing for dungeons to be more challenging more in alignment with an MMO?

I believe it is the opposite, as (in my opinion) a MMO would imply heavily streamlined leveling process with predictable difficulty.

[Maladus]

I believe it is the opposite, as (in my opinion) a MMO would imply heavily streamlined leveling process with predictable difficulty.

You say this as though predictable difficulty is a naughty word, but I think it's actually a desirable outcome when creating dungeons. I should be clear here, I've had some time to reflect on this since making my original post and the emotion I was feeling has subsided - I don't think my issue was with the chest itself.

Let me explain, I do believe that challenge in dungeons is great and should be encouraged. However, in my opinion you should be able to prepare yourself for the challenge. I'll take the example of the chest to demonstrate what I mean.

The chest sits stationary in the middle of the room, and it's hostile to you as a player. Without any sort of hint that it's a challenging encounter, I assumed it would be on par with the other enemies. I was wrong. If however, the chest is surrounded by dried blood and the bones of fallen adventurers,I might think twice about blindly attacking it.

This is an example of predictable difficulty that doesn't change anything about the chest, but changes how it is presented. This is not a bad thing and should be encouraged.

There are already examples of this on the server, but in ways that don't quite tell a story like the bones and blood would. Anytime that you are in a dungeon and a boss is behind a door, you can prepare for the coming challenge. In fact, this very thing is in that same dungeon: as you approach the final enemy, you enter through a door and can see the boss in the distance through some gates you have to open to reach the boss.

[Void]

The chest sits stationary in the middle of the room, and it's hostile to you as a player. Without any sort of hint that it's a challenging encounter, I assumed it would be on par with the other enemies. I was wrong.

In my opinion, that's game-like thinking. A difficult enemy does not warrant a hint, and most of the time if you see a new monster, you do not know how difficult it is until you try fighting it. So when you fight something NEW you'd really want to be ready to -pray and run. That's how it always is in new areas.

Did you examine the creature, by the way? The description sometimes gives hints. But only sometimes.

Anytime that you are in a dungeon and a boss is behind a door, you can prepare for the coming challenge.

That one's false. You absolutely can waltz into a monster you can't kill by accident and with no warning. Had this happen to multiple characters many times.

Because bad things happen, it makes sense to be prepared or bring a buddy along that can carry out your corpse when (and not if) things go wrong.

[Maladus]

In my opinion, that's game-like thinking. A difficult enemy does not warrant a hint, and most of the time if you see a new monster, you do not know how difficult it is until you try fighting it. So when you fight something NEW you'd really want to be ready to -pray and run. That's how it always is in new areas.

I just flat out disagree with that first point. It's good game design to inform players of what to expect before they encounter it. In my opinion that's an objective truth. Second, I agree with you about not knowing how difficult a monster is until you fight it. However, once I've fought a few of the creatures in an area, I sort of expect the rest to be on that same level. If they aren't, I don't think asking for some visual cues isn't too much of an ask.

Anytime that you are in a dungeon and a boss is behind a door, you can prepare for the coming challenge.

That one's false. You absolutely can waltz into a monster you can't kill by accident and with no warning. Had this happen to multiple characters many times.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying here. In many dungeons, the final boss is behind a door giving you a chance to prepare: Cordor Crypts, Wharftown Boys, Cordor Iron Mines, Coal Mines, etc. etc. I wasn't suggesting that EVERY dungeon is this way, but many are and they give you a chance to do things in preparation for the fight to come. I'm also not suggesting that this should be the case every time because some of the most exhilarating encounters I've had on the server were when I was caught unawares and had to scramble to compensate.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

In my opinion, that's game-like thinking. A difficult enemy does not warrant a hint, and most of the time if you see a new monster, you do not know how difficult it is until you try fighting it. So when you fight something NEW you'd really want to be ready to -pray and run. That's how it always is in new areas.

I just flat out disagree with that first point. It's good game design to inform players of what to expect before they encounter it. In my opinion that's an objective truth. Second, I agree with you about not knowing how difficult a monster is until you fight it. However, once I've fought a few of the creatures in an area, I sort of expect the rest to be on that same level. If they aren't, I don't think asking for some visual cues isn't too much of an ask.

Anytime that you are in a dungeon and a boss is behind a door, you can prepare for the coming challenge.

That one's false. You absolutely can waltz into a monster you can't kill by accident and with no warning. Had this happen to multiple characters many times.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying here. In many dungeons, the final boss is behind a door giving you a chance to prepare: Cordor Crypts, Wharftown Boys, Cordor Iron Mines, Coal Mines, etc. etc. I wasn't suggesting that EVERY dungeon is this way, but many are and they give you a chance to do things in preparation for the fight to come. I'm also not suggesting that this should be the case every time because some of the most exhilarating encounters I've had on the server were when I was caught unawares and had to scramble to compensate.

How can personal preference of being given warnings be an objective truth? Objectively darksouls had a lot of people enjoy a different perspective than yours. There is merit to giving some kind of warning, but I dont think it fall under objective truth. Then again my standard for objective truth is extremely high (like "I think therefore I am, or a triangle as 3 corners")

[Maladus]

Alright, maybe I was being a bit hyperbolic...and Dark Souls is an interesting counter point because From Software does do that a fair amount. Perhaps it's because the weight of death is not as impactful in those games.

Fair enough, I retract my previous statement. It is not an objective truth, but I still think it can be valuable.

[Void]

I think you misunderstood what I was saying here. In many dungeons, the final boss is behind a door giving you a chance to prepare: Cordor Crypts, Wharftown Boys, Cordor Iron Mines, Coal Mines, etc. etc. I wasn't suggesting that EVERY dungeon is this way, but many are and they give you a chance to do things in preparation for the fight to come. I'm also not suggesting that this should be the case every time because some of the most exhilarating encounters I've had on the server were when I was caught unawares and had to scramble to compensate.

I'm aware at the moment of multiple places where you can get jumped by an optional boss largely out of the blue, and multiple points on the map where you can be ambushed by a very difficult creature, also out of the blue, while the area appears to be mostly safe. There are also writs that can lead you to an area you can handle that also has a conveniently placed entrance to a spot where you can get shredded in a few rounds.

Unfortunately, this sort of thing is too FOIG to discuss. I do love experience in a certain area where after defeating a boss, you head out relaxed and then get ambushed by a second boss which is optional and only appears sometimes.

Over time you realize that areas aren't static, and danger can appear in unexpected places, so you stay on your toes while being ready to run. While it is occasionally nice to have a big fat warning for things, having a warning for everything doesn't feel quite right for me. This sort of randomness keeps things fun and adds unpredictability.

Anyway, since you retracted the statement....

Fair enough, I retract my previous statement. It is not an objective truth, but I still think it can be valuable.

Have fun and have a nice evening.

[Nitro]

The chest sits stationary in the middle of the room, and it's hostile to you as a player. Without any sort of hint that it's a challenging encounter, I assumed it would be on par with the other enemies. I was wrong.

In my opinion, that's game-like thinking. A difficult enemy does not warrant a hint, and most of the time if you see a new monster, you do not know how difficult it is until you try fighting it. So when you fight something NEW you'd really want to be ready to -pray and run. That's how it always is in new areas.

Did you examine the creature, by the way? The description sometimes gives hints. But only sometimes.

Anytime that you are in a dungeon and a boss is behind a door, you can prepare for the coming challenge.

That one's false. You absolutely can waltz into a monster you can't kill by accident and with no warning. Had this happen to multiple characters many times.

Because bad things happen, it makes sense to be prepared or bring a buddy along that can carry out your corpse when (and not if) things go wrong.

We are playing a game though, and going "Oops, guess you shouldn't have gone there now you're dead!" is bad game design. It makes sense from a narrative perspective, sure. But imagine if you were playing D&D and your DM, with no warning, hints or buildup drops a monster on your level 3 party that paralyzes them on hit, with enough attack bonuses to guarantee hits. Would you not stand up and ask the DM after the TPK "What the heck was that?"

I'm all for having places on the server be dangerous or even way out of line with the rest of the stuff in the area, but at least give it an RPG treatment. Have corpses littered around the area, NPC's in a nearby settlement that gives you a warning if you bother to talk to them, a side chamber with the journal of a dead adventurer whose party fell victim to the same thing etc. reward exploration rather than punishing exploration.
Arelith already has dozens of these things in really old areas that have been around for well over a decade, like the scorchmarks and charred remains in the bendir orc caves in front of the fireball trap.

[MissEvelyn]

We are playing a game though, and going "Oops, guess you shouldn't have gone there now you're dead!" is bad game design. It makes sense from a narrative perspective, sure. But imagine if you were playing D&D and your DM, with no warning, hints or buildup drops a monster on your level 3 party that paralyzes them on hit, with enough attack bonuses to guarantee hits. Would you not stand up and ask the DM after the TPK "What the heck was that?"

I'm all for having places on the server be dangerous or even way out of line with the rest of the stuff in the area, but at least give it an RPG treatment. Have corpses littered around the area, NPC's in a nearby settlement that gives you a warning if you bother to talk to them, a side chamber with the journal of a dead adventurer whose party fell victim to the same thing etc. reward exploration rather than punishing exploration.
Arelith already has dozens of these things in really old areas that have been around for well over a decade, like the scorchmarks and charred remains in the bendir orc caves in front of the fireball trap.

If you right click and examine the chest, you will see that the description is very much suspicious. I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the screenshot (I did in fact have one, when I ran it because I wanted to show a friend, a week back, unrelated entirely to this thread - Steam deleted it, because Steam doesn't save conversations that far back). It went something like this: "You see a chest, probably filled with delicious treasure that you can't wait to get your grabby hands on."

That to me would be the same as a DM saying exactly that at a tabletop game. But like in D&D, Arelith requires you to actually pay attention to the game and to your surroundings. It's unreasonable to expect the devs to cater to people who don't pay attention to their actual surroundings.

Not all traps and hazards are going to be equally as obvious as a burnt mark or bloody bodies. But I wouldn't call this chest subtle - all you have to do is examine it, and not run at it with full force. The fact that it shows up as hostile (red color) on your screen is another indicator that is, in fact, a danger.

One quick thing to note: In D&D you don't simply respawn and come back to life. So the comparison is a moot point in this case. One is challenging with lasting consequences, the other is far more forgiving.