Multi-PC Faction Rules Need Recurring Hostility Clarification

[Wings of Peace]

Straightforwardly, I think the rules on having multiple pcs in the same faction would be improved by expanding into what the expectations are as far as pcs adopting outlooks and politics of previous chars/factions (previous as in the preceding 1 or 2 pcs). Groups rolling new characters that take up the same underlying grudges as the old ones, even if the new hostilities are coincidental, imo run into many of the same concerns as having pcs in conflicting factions or even having multiple pcs in the same faction. I realize this would be a difficult ruleset to police but Arelith has never seemed to shy away from that in the past if the rule at least communicates an expectation.

[Curve]

I don't know about changing any rules. What I will say is that I personally don't deal with this because I don't concern myself with who plays who and try to take each character as an individual character. That is to say this might be a case of information overload on your part. Knowing and thinking too much about ooc matters is not rewarding.

[Wings of Peace]

I don't know about changing any rules. What I will say is that I personally don't deal with this because I don't concern myself with who plays who and try to take each character as an individual character. That is to say this might be a case of information overload on your part. Knowing and thinking too much about ooc matters is not rewarding.

That's a good outlook to have but the reality is that there are groups of pcs who fall into this category both now and in the past and I think that regardless of what stance the rules take it's a grey enough area that it warrants flushing out. Otherwise you could make the same dismissal towards the existing rules I mentioned such as multiple pcs in the same faction or multiple pcs in opposed factions. Surely if there's no problem then extra clarification can't hurt.

[Morgy]

I feel that this is, unfortunately, a real thing.. what's more, you can't easily distance yourself from it when you are directly sought out, despite having little/no interaction with said PCs.

I imagine this comes under the metagaming/be nice rules too.

[The GrumpyCat]

As far as I'm awear our current faction rules are

*You should never have characters in the same MECHANICAL faction at the same time. By which I mean the -faction command. This is to prevent basic mechanical exploitation (like transferring and activating gold and stuff). I'd advise against having concurrent characters (one after another) in the same faction too, for a similar reason.
* I'd HEAVILY advise against having character in close knit 'soft' factions at the same time. E.g. Alt 1 and alt 2 both in the Bendir Hawkin. This is a REALY bad idea as it can lead to big brothering/metagaming. Your alts should have little to no knowledge of each other, and certainly shouldn't care, or act in each others interests.
* There's not really any rules against having concurrent characters (one after another) in the same soft faction. And I'm not eager to put one in. I think it's generally a very good idea to change factions and areas mark you. I'd very heavily encourage it. But I don't want to enforce it. Besides this really opens up the question as what you consider a 'faction'.
* Carrying over unreasonable grudges from previous characters is something that is reportable, factions or no. That said sometimes this happens organically. If you play Throgdor, murderer of 20000 elf babies, then I'm as likely to hate you on my paladin character, as I am on my elf character.

Another thing to keep in mind is 'factions' (excepting the mechanical concept of -faction) is a bit of a nebulous thing.
If I play and elf paladin in the Gauntlet, and then an elf Paladin in The Golden Dawn, and both of these mini factions are still in the Radient Heart, am I playing two characters in the same faction?

If both my elves are in myon but share nothing else in common, is that the same faction?

if both my characters are Good aligned, but share nothing else in common, is that the same faction?

If both my characters are underdarkers, is that the same faction?

I realize that 'common sense' is strange, rare and nebulous creature, but that I think is really what we have to base it on when we deal with stuff like this.

If you think someone is bearing ooc grudges across characters, let us know. If you think someone is muling equipment/money through factions, let us know. But this stuff is covered in other rules. I don't really feel that we need another for what factions you can and can't be part of, aside from what I've stated above.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Your new character shouldn't have the same circle of friends as your immediately previous character. This is a good rule of thumb.

You can end up making similar relationships by happenstance, but you really should do everything in your power to make a new character new.

[MissEvelyn]

If someone deposits 10 million gold into their faction bank, then deletes their character and a month later create a new one into the same faction, withdraw coins from the faction bank, isn't it considered muling?

[The GrumpyCat]

Your new character shouldn't have the same circle of friends as your immediately previous character. This is a good rule of thumb.

You can end up making similar relationships by happenstance, but you really should do everything in your power to make a new character new.

This is really true and I absolutly support this. I don't think we need to start making rules or such to prevent people playing with the same folk again if it is fun (to a degree anyway) but I really would advise it's good to move to a different group with new characters, for a vareity of reasons.

If someone deposits 10 million gold into their faction bank, then deletes their character and a month later create a new one into the same faction, withdraw coins from the faction bank, isn't it considered muling?

I'd consider this muling yes. We do have tools to trace such things too, though they take a bit of monitoring. So please don't do it.

[Skibbles]

I think this probably just falls under Rule 1: Roleplay (and in grevious cases likely easily reported under this umbrella.)

Rolling up a new PC that has all the same dispositions as the last PC, right out of the gate, seems to fall short of properly attending to this rule.

I've seen this off and on over the years, but I only notice it when its pretty blatant. I've heard stories of it going on in the UD lately but I take it with a pinch of salt. Pun intended.

[Retratserif]

I totally agree with keeping the characters in the same area on different storylines. At times the may cross being some areas are smaller than others.

I do feel that there is way too much of this going on in the way of cross playing soft factions. As much as some try to ignore it, it creates an oppressive environment.

Knowing that no matter how hard someone tries, most things will be out of your reach because there is already a line of succession planned.

There may be great RP IG for it... But if the same few circle of players hold key positions and properties and other functional content... It locks it away for those that are not down with those factions or that playstyle.

*Shrugs*

[AstralUniverse]

So please don't do it.

But like... this happens probably more often than we all care to admit, without any malicious intent. The fact that factions can live for an infinite amount of time, recycling characters (eventually, after long enough, by returning players who've already played a character in that faction X amount of time ago) means that if they use the faction's gold account even once, it's technically mulling already. So where does the line go? Because from where I see it, the only way to make a clear cut rule that actually pushes towards "dont do it" would be to say "dont ever play characters in the same faction twice" which then would mean not playing a guard in cordor ever again, or not playing a harper or zhent ever again. So for something as extremely major violation, it still seems a bit blur about what *is* really allowed and what isnt. Maybe faction bank accounts are the problem.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Because from where I see it, the only way to make a clear cut rule that actually pushes towards "dont do it" would be to say "dont ever play characters in the same faction twice" which then would mean not playing a guard in cordor ever again, or not playing a harper or zhent ever again.

This is a good practice to develop.

[Amateur Hour]

Because from where I see it, the only way to make a clear cut rule that actually pushes towards "dont do it" would be to say "dont ever play characters in the same faction twice" which then would mean not playing a guard in cordor ever again, or not playing a harper or zhent ever again.

This is a good practice to develop.

The idea that you could never ever join a faction on a future character that you were in on a previous character is absurdly limiting and would very quickly drain any kind of settlement-linked "persistent" factions...and if mechanically enforced, frankly, would likely lead to just having a multitude of subsidiary factions with the government faction acting as a shell. Pity the poor person who makes their first character, joins the Cordor guard, then realizes they hate their build and want to roll something new but love law enforcement roleplay.

[Eyeliner]

Yeah that's not really practical. Besides I think many or most of us have favorite races/classes/whatever we keep gravitating towards. I think it's better to keep options open so we can chase inspiration and creative muses instead of shoehorning us into characters we don't care about.

I personally have no interest in hopping all over the island playing different things for the sake of it, I just want to play what moves me right now. This is supposed to be fun, after all.

[DM Monkey]

There's nothing unclear about "Don't do it."

Jumping into the same faction your previous character just finished up with isn't good. If you at some point, months/years later, end up in that faction then it's just not really the same problem. If you can't tell the difference between these two scenarios: Don't do it.

[AstralUniverse]

Jumping into the same faction your previous character just finished up with isn't good. If you at some point, months/years later, end up in that faction then it's just not really the same problem. If you can't tell the difference between these two scenarios: Don't do it.

Thanks for clarity.

[MissEvelyn]

This entire thread makes me wonder what lengths mulers will go to for money (gold) laundering to not get caught.

If someone deposits 10 million gold into their faction bank, then deletes their character and a month later create a new one into the same faction, withdraw coins from the faction bank, isn't it considered muling?

In my above example I listed a month, but what if it took them a year? Or longer? So, while another player was keeping the faction (and its massive coffers) dormant but alive for the entirety of the months (or even years!), our muler would eventually return to the same faction with a new character, gain access to the same funds that their previous character had accumulated.

I agree with "Don't do it.", but rules lawyers are going to try and skirt around these rules. And then there are also those who are doing it unknowingly and unintentionally.

[xanrael]

I think the "big brothering" is probably a far greater issue than directly muling of your gold from one to the other. I've seen a lot more poisonous outcomes from someone that rolls and rejoins only to have the red carpet rolled out for them to the detriment of any other new members.

That's not to say muling isn't bad, I just see it as more of an obvious detriment and even "solving" that isn't going to suddenly make the situation okay.

[Amateur Hour]

That's not to say muling isn't bad, I just see it as more of an obvious detriment and even "solving" that isn't going to suddenly make the situation okay.

Agreed. Arelith is a closed economic system with a relatively small number of entities. If you have ever given a gift on one character and receive a gift on another, even in totally different character groups years apart (it being years apart actually increases the chances), it is very possible through some chain that it could be linked back to that original gift. And disallowing giving gifts would be ridiculous.

Muling is a problem when money is moved around in a way that gives a player an unfair advantage on one or more characters that they would not otherwise have. Having a faction that's sitting around for months or years functioning purely as a shell bank account is not the same thing as a faction that has funds flowing in and out and has active RP around it over that same period.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Because from where I see it, the only way to make a clear cut rule that actually pushes towards "dont do it" would be to say "dont ever play characters in the same faction twice" which then would mean not playing a guard in cordor ever again, or not playing a harper or zhent ever again.

This is a good practice to develop.

The idea that you could never ever join a faction on a future character that you were in on a previous character is absurdly limiting and would very quickly drain any kind of settlement-linked "persistent" factions...and if mechanically enforced, frankly, would likely lead to just having a multitude of subsidiary factions with the government faction acting as a shell. Pity the poor person who makes their first character, joins the Cordor guard, then realizes they hate their build and want to roll something new but love law enforcement roleplay.

Well, okay. Of course use your own discretion and if you stumble into the Cordor Guard, love the narrative, but realize playing a barbarian/wizard kinda sucks, go for it.

But if you just played as a pretty involved Harper for the past 18 months, absolutely should not make a Harper again. Maybe not ever again.

If you played the Coronal of Myon for a solid 8 months, consciously or not, playing the Myon elf next will not be a clean, fresh, or fair experience.

You *should* rotate around the server.

If you don't, and even if you are an incredible roleplayer, you will 100% create the optics of "unable to let go" or "big brothering" or "back in my day we did this, so your idea is dumb."

If you never play leader-like characters, or heavily culturally entrenched characters, the "roleplay" spirit of this faction rule doesn't apply as much.

We blew up settlements/factions because cliques would create impenetrable hierarchies that they would hold onto over multiple generations of characters.

So yeah, if you like law enforcement? Go law enforce elsewhere on the next toon. You and the server will be better for it.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Telling people they should never play a Harper ever again is a bit harsh.

[Drowboy]

Two options:

1. Never repeat factions, playing your character to the exact specification as determined by forumgoers you'll never meaningfully interact with, and when you've hit every faction, if you don't feel like making a new one, idk, quit?

2. follow the rules and rotate login names so forum people who stalk who plays with who can't track you because what even

[Hazard]

After a decade and a half I am absolutely going to play characters in the same/similar factions eventually.

Just be reasonable about it and don't play the same faction too soon, just like you shouldn't play the same kind of character too soon. When you're ready you're ready, but give it some time to get the creative juices back and for it to feel fresh.

Just assuming 'faction' here to be vague things like 'Cordor Guard' or 'Myon'. Smaller personally run factions, I agree, you probably shouldn't be hopping back into on another character unless there's a very strong and organic roleplay reason why things wound up that way, and it wasn't an OOC decision. You should really not be doing that though.

[Quidix]

I do think some are taking this argument way too far. This is a game and we're here to have fun. We make friends and we all enjoy certain areas / aspects of the server more than others. Saying people can't play ever in the same faction again is really extreme and just detracts from fun.

A rule of 'no muling' if you're ever in the same faction and / or 'wait at least a few months' seems reasonable, but anything beyond that just takes away from people having a good time. Honestly, I don't see a big difference playing two separate character in an area for 1 year vs just playing a long-term character for 1 year - both are entrenched (assuming no muling, which is a separate point imo).

[xanrael]

Honestly, I don't see a big difference playing two separate character in an area for 1 year vs just playing a long-term character for 1 year - both are entrenched (assuming no muling, which is a separate point imo).

A subset of the same players creating an entrenched position and controlling the narrative for a really long time is bad as the area can stagnate, no disagreement on the two being similar here.

In the case of a single character their whole history sticks with them and it's "in the open". In the case of an alt then they can dump part of their history and play something new but still let their buddies know OOC that it's the same player. To a third party that lacks that metaknowledge it may seem like things are going to open up but it's an illusion.