Ship PvP Rules

[Dreams]

How much time is fair and reasonable to wait for a response?

Players may be AFK or not paying attention at the moment things begin, so assuming the other side is silent but acting in good faith, is 1 minute appropriate? 2 minutes? I've seen ships basically raise a flag + fire the warning shot immediately. Sometimes they are also shouting, but it seems like on the other ship they don't always see the shouts.

[ltlukoziuz]

Not sure on other stuff, but shouts are only if you're on deck and in same quadrant, iirc they don't go through if you're below the deck. So if the two ships are constantly moving, it could easily be that one ship comes in, shouts, and then other ship gets out to another quad, unable to respond. Had that way too many times even without PvP in mind. Maybe with the new map we could extend the shout range to one tile over, just like spot range?

[TheDoctor]

How much time is fair and reasonable to wait for a response?

Players may be AFK or not paying attention at the moment things begin, so assuming the other side is silent but acting in good faith, is 1 minute appropriate? 2 minutes? I've seen ships basically raise a flag + fire the warning shot immediately. Sometimes they are also shouting, but it seems like on the other ship they don't always see the shouts.

You MUST do 2 of 3 things

Flag play
Warning shot
Shout to ship

There is no waiting list or time period.

Honestly.. In my opinion it should be ALL THREE. Extend the shout range more than one tile allready!

[DM Nixie]

From the rules:

Give a fair and reasonable amount of time for the other players to react to your presence. We have logs. If you’re trying to game the system for an unfair surprise advantage, we’ll know.

It's not an exact science, but if there's less than sixty seconds between your first hostile-intent gesture and your first attack, you should definitely expect to have a chat with us. You must give other players an opportunity to see that their characters are going to be in a hostile situation, just as you are required to have roleplay and hostile indicators before a combat on land.

[chris a gogo]

Is ship PvP exempt from the 48 hour rule.
Example.
If character(s) are killed the day before in normal PvP, is it then alright for them to go sailing and start attack ships even if they are filled with the same groups that killed them the day before?

[-XXX-]

From the rules:

Give a fair and reasonable amount of time for the other players to react to your presence. We have logs. If you’re trying to game the system for an unfair surprise advantage, we’ll know.

It's not an exact science, but if there's less than sixty seconds between your first hostile-intent gesture and your first attack, you should definitely expect to have a chat with us. You must give other players an opportunity to see that their characters are going to be in a hostile situation, just as you are required to have roleplay and hostile indicators before a combat on land.

This is sort of awkward right now.

With the new grid and the way ships move around, they often skip quadrants in around a minute of RL time.

That pretty much means if I am on a faster ship and somebody flies red flag and fires warning shots expecting a response, all I need to do is play possum and will get away safely almost every time.

[DM Galahad]

Is ship PvP exempt from the 48 hour rule.
Example.
If character(s) are killed the day before in normal PvP, is it then alright for them to go sailing and start attack ships even if they are filled with the same groups that killed them the day before?

No, it's not exempt, but it is more difficult. You will not always know who is on the other ship, and it's not necessarily in your control who you come across in sailing. Just do your best to avoid those who killed you the day before. We can tell when someone is intentionally disregarding the 48hour rule, and when they are not. It's also worth highlighting that if a ship is sunk, the involved ships should not be fighting again for at least 48 hours. Per our rules,

Sinking or being sunk initiates the 48 hour rule. Avoid each other as much as possible. Ships make it hard to know who to avoid. Do your best.

As for the 'reasonable amount of time' requirements, it should certainly still be followed for now. What we really do not want to see is effectively ship-ganking, whereby a non-warning shot is fired the second after a flag is changed.

Think of it this way, we ask that in land PVP, players almost put themselves at a disadvantage to make it clear to the opposing party that they will attack. We don't allow sudden, one-line PVP. It's part of being a good sport and playing in good faith. We ask the same of sailing. Give more time rather than less, and if they get away, so what?

That pretty much means if I am on a faster ship and somebody flies red flag and fires warning shots expecting a response, all I need to do is play possum and will get away safely almost every time.

To be honest, I don't see why this is a problem. They're on a faster ship, so they have more advantage to get away. Why is it an issue?

[-XXX-]

To be honest, I don't see why this is a problem. They're on a faster ship, so they have more advantage to get away. Why is it an issue?

The way I see it this is a very similar to when a disguised character who is trying to slip by posted guards just ignores everybody and keeps walking when called out. Imagine the guards would be compelled to give that character 60 seconds before engaging them.
Now, in land PvP this is straightforward - the character moved, which is an active action and by extension RP (i.e., we can tell the player's not afk and is reacting to what is going on)
Ships are different in that they just keep moving no matter what (though with the frequency of sail checks and boarding encounters it is highly unlikely the crew's going to be AFK).

I see this as a minor issue, because we can't make ships go any faster, or slow the other ship down (by other means than actively damaging it).
That means the crew of the faster ship can just keep playing possum and getting away with it - that effectively makes naval PvP an "opt-in" affair for them (which wouldn't have been that bad by itself), but this doesn't go both ways.

This was generally a non-issue on the old grid, because ships moved through quadrants at much slower rates, but on the new grid you often get to see another ship for mere seconds before it vanishes again.

[TheDoctor]

To be honest, I don't see why this is a problem. They're on a faster ship, so they have more advantage to get away. Why is it an issue?

The way I see it this is a very similar to when a disguised character who is trying to slip by posted guards just ignores everybody and keeps walking when called out. Imagine the guards would be compelled to give that character 60 seconds before engaging them.
Now, in land PvP this is straightforward - the character moved, which is an active action and by extension RP (i.e., we can tell the player's not afk and is reacting to what is going on)
Ships are different in that they just keep moving no matter what (though with the frequency of sail checks and boarding encounters it is highly unlikely the crew's going to be AFK).

I see this as a minor issue, because we can't make ships go any faster, or slow the other ship down (by other means than actively damaging it).
That means the crew of the faster ship can just keep playing possum and getting away with it - that effectively makes naval PvP an "opt-in" affair for them (which wouldn't have been that bad by itself), but this doesn't go both ways.

This was generally a non-issue on the old grid, because ships moved through quadrants at much slower rates, but on the new grid you often get to see another ship for mere seconds before it vanishes again.

Well.. One.... The system is in a state of flux and change... You know it, I know it... ESPECIALLY speeds of travel across the map specifically.

How is goin faster a problem? Let me use a landlubber analogy... Charie 1 and charie 2 get into pvp... Charie 1 ATTACKS 2....

Well it so happens charie 2 is a monk (or mage with haste) who can run FASTER than charie 1...

Okay maybe not the best example... The reality of it is if yer slower and goin after a faster ship then expect it to be... faster and might get away from you. Unless you wanna "balance" all ships to the same speed then this is something that should remain...

And again... Reminder that the system is in a state of being vastly changed and improved. The speeds we were sailing at 3 days ago are not what they are today... Remember that warp speed race to Raynes? yeah no.

[-XXX-]

We've got sprint and haste potions - characters on land can match each other's speed regardless of build.

But even that concerns already ongoing PvP - not speed used as get out of jail card during a grace period.
If you set hostile and your character makes a threat against mine and I then hit the sprint button and dart for the nearest exit - that's game on, you don't have to wait 60 seconds for me to run away.

And sure, precisely because the system is in flux ATM I'm trying to point out things that might cause problems later if left as they are.