Water/food system

[Anime Sword Fighter]

First Hak we implement should be better food objects in the game so we no longer must use The Bag

[Xerah]

Most people just buy xx amounts every time they are at the peddler. It doesn't really general traffic anywhere.

[Iceborn]

There should be eating fixtures in inns and quarters. Similar to pumps for water.

I both like and don't like this idea. One of the most frustrating things about having "catering" at an event is people having to break apart stacks and find the item in their inventory, and eat it. It would be cool if we had a fixture we could use -eat at and it would cause a character animation and filling the hunger meter.

But at the same time, I don't think it should be a permanent fixture. Characters shouldn't walk into the Nomad or Logjam to feed at the public trough, it'd really odd.

Mundane is not interesting to role play all the time. That's the issue with the system. Can you RP a nice meal? Sure. But being forced to do it all the time is extremely uninteresting. It's a big reason why people don't even bother.

Does it help immersion when you toss to fists in front of you to eat? I've certainly never seen anyone eat like that. That's the visual reason why I hate it.

The most immersive part isn't the physical action of eating or drinking. It's the need to find/carry food or drink on you, and the need to gravitate towards sources of it. Message boards and sources of food/water as well as resting areas are the heart of any settlement. And I mean that in a literal sense, as it pumps traffic to and from these locations. I'd call that really immersive, because if you think about it, literally everything we do in RL revolves around securing food and water first and foremost. It's a necessity. Most of our social functions are centered around sharing food with others. The quality of the food you eat even reflects your social class. It's really important as a social function, and helps to shape cultures . The idea for the system on Arelith is good, it's just incomplete and therefore, boring.

We should have more variants of food. What do the people of Guldorand eat? What are the traditional dishes of Cordor? What kind of food would you expect to find in a kitchen in Bendir? Let's make the food npcs a little more unique. Allow characters to express a fondness for a particular food. My character refers to the people of Guldorand as Cragsmen (Skull Crags), and would most likely have developed a deep affection for their dishes, mostly out of loyalty. That's something you can RP. Another one of my characters might really like spiced chicken. I dunno, experiment with giving things more flavor (literally and metaphorically).

If so important is the need to carry food, I have this idea -
Instead of having to consume food as an item, it automatically loses a charge every tick, simply to represent that your character has something to eat, and they may nibble at it when they feel like it - or merely to symbolize that they don't see the need to stuff their face with both fists at the time.
I am 100% with Xerah on this, but I'd genuinely be happy to have a system that feels less obnoxiously implemented. I don't log into Arelith to play as if this was the Sims.

[MissEvelyn]

Consider the fact that if you take away the mechanic, an entire Roleplay section of the server known as tavern RP with actual player characters making coin and experience points off of serving people food and drinks will be made invalid and moot.

No, thanks. I agree with Rieper; if anything, the system should be expanded upon. Better alerts would also help for reminders. Or perhaps "hungry" could come at 25%.

[Sea Shanties]

I don't think anyone would say throw out the bartending system if you disabled hunger and thirst. Going to in-game bars is fun. You have named drinks and PC servers and a place to hang out and talk, that would all be a draw even if there were no meters. Heck I don't think a lot of PCs hanging out in the nomad even click to drink or eat what they're served OOC, even if their characters are RPing that they are consuming. I don't think people mind the sobriety meter so much either, at least I don't, because it doesn't get in the way unless you're actually drinking.

Though the sobriety/rest thing makes me wonder how it would be if instead of separate sobriety/rest/food/water meters we just had "exhaustion", one simple meter that food, water and rest all raised and lack of sleep and drinking alcohol lowered (though sobriety might serve too much purpose to fold into that.)I think I wouldn't mind the eating and drinking so much if things were streamlined.

[Petrifictus]

Expanding would be nice and I agree that removing meters could do great harm to the Inn RP I'm running with my crew in the Nomad.

[Let Love In]

Which games have systems we like? I enjoyed making food in Zelda Breath of the Wild, for example.

[Veresi]

I like the system, ofc its sometimes annoying but i've learned to deal with it. Getting high quality pies to ease the hunger is a nice thing. Even getting some coffee to stay up a little longer... funny idea It is a very exciting system even if you do not get any buffs. It could become a nice system if buffs would be implemented but it wont stop the munching all the time, instead you would have to wait extra time while warding up to eat to drink.....

Then there will be extra shops with megapies of enhanced slaugther and pies of wisdom... i am not sure if this might be the right way? I would dislike that.
"Bartender gimme 50 Pies i need them now, we are heading to the red dragon island."

Eating rations might be boring but getting a cookie instead... i had quiet much rp about food ofc its something more technical but it leads to conversations. (Sometimes)

just my 2 cents.

[DM Axis]

I'm on record saying this system will not be removed.

This is still the case.

But onto the topic of diversity in the food/drink sector. There is the ability to craft and give your food/drink flavor text both in the name as well as the description. Be mindful that these objects might stack and the way to preserve your custom creation would be to set down any other objects from that same stack out of inventory. Then pick up the newly custom crafted item, and then pick up the rest of the items that will now stack with it.

[Mr_Rieper]

I'm on record saying this system will not be removed.

This is still the case.

But onto the topic of diversity in the food/drink sector. There is the ability to craft and give your food/drink flavor text both in the name as well as the description. Be mindful that these objects might stack and the way to preserve your custom creation would be to set down any other objects from that same stack out of inventory. Then pick up the newly custom crafted item, and then pick up the rest of the items that will now stack with it.

These aren't sold by the vendors, and have very little substance and/or reason to exist. What I was proposing is that instead of selling default food items, the food vendors sell unique food items that only that particular NPC or settlement NPCs sell. It may not make a mechanical difference, but it does make a difference in RP, and this system is intended for RP.

So, to be clear, what I was proposing is this:
Currently, Nomad NPCs sell Rations and Travel Provisions. The same as the Logjam, the same as any other inn.
So for worldbuilding reasons, we give each settlement a speciality or preference for food. Guldorand doesn't have cows due to terrain, but it has goats. It has a smokehouse. Potatoes grow in poor soil. Venison from hunters.
Now in the Logjam, the Travel Provisions is renamed to Smoked Venison. It has a description about how the hunters of Guldorand like their meat. The Ration token is renamed to Goat's Cheese, and has a similar description.

Cordor likes their dairy, fruit and wine. Have their travel provisions and rations renamed to something else. The Sharps likes their rat meat. The Underdark as a whole eats rothe meat and fungi. The dwarves of Brog probably have a particular fondness for pork or spitroasted meat, and likely have a different, dark and rich kind of beer too. It's as simple as renaming the food items and descriptions. They may do the exact same thing, but for worldbuilding purposes, they DO matter.

If so important is the need to carry food, I have this idea -
Instead of having to consume food as an item, it automatically loses a charge every tick, simply to represent that your character has something to eat, and they may nibble at it when they feel like it - or merely to symbolize that they don't see the need to stuff their face with both fists at the time.
I am 100% with Xerah on this, but I'd genuinely be happy to have a system that feels less obnoxiously implemented. I don't log into Arelith to play as if this was the Sims.

I had a similar idea, but I think it's important that there is a mechanical reason to actually perform the act of eating from time to time. Maybe characters could have some sort of default provisions they could stock up on, and it only maintained their hunger at around 20% or 25%? So you could comfortably ignore the meters until it was time to roleplay eating with others, but you still had to visit taverns and inns to restock on food supplies often.

[DM Axis]

So, to be clear, what I was proposing is this:
Currently, Nomad NPCs sell Rations and Travel Provisions. The same as the Logjam, the same as any other inn.
So for worldbuilding reasons, we give each settlement a speciality or preference for food. Guldorand doesn't have cows due to terrain, but it has goats. It has a smokehouse. Potatoes grow in poor soil. Venison from hunters.
Now in the Logjam, the Travel Provisions is renamed to Smoked Venison. It has a description about how the hunters of Guldorand like their meat. The Ration token is renamed to Goat's Cheese, and has a similar description.

Cordor likes their dairy, fruit and wine. Have their travel provisions and rations renamed to something else. The Sharps likes their rat meat. The Underdark as a whole eats rothe meat and fungi. The dwarves of Brog probably have a particular fondness for pork or spitroasted meat, and likely have a different, dark and rich kind of beer too. It's as simple as renaming the food items and descriptions. They may do the exact same thing, but for worldbuilding purposes, they DO matter.

Keep in mind the logistics of inventory space. Individual flavored items like this do not stack with even similarly visually placed counterparts or those that serve also an identical purpose. Already in inns like the Nomad there are a variety of drinks (beers and so on) that are unique. (Perhaps some of these items might be expanded to other inns?)

The underdark also has its own unique food staple, but the typical adventurer will gravitate towards whatever is efficient. That said, the Developers could well take your 'feedback' ideas into consideration. But as the suggestion thread is locked, that is one item on a long list that is already being worked on.

[Subutai]

Currently, Nomad NPCs sell Rations and Travel Provisions. The same as the Logjam, the same as any other inn.
So for worldbuilding reasons, we give each settlement a speciality or preference for food. Guldorand doesn't have cows due to terrain, but it has goats. It has a smokehouse. Potatoes grow in poor soil. Venison from hunters.
Now in the Logjam, the Travel Provisions is renamed to Smoked Venison. It has a description about how the hunters of Guldorand like their meat. The Ration token is renamed to Goat's Cheese, and has a similar description.

I love this idea. I think a lot of the worries in this thread about taking away incentive for players to make food are taking the suggestion of adding more food options to vendors as jumping from one extreme to the other. Either you have one generic "Ration" item, or you have an endless amount of options and cooking special items has no point at all.

I think there's a huge amount of space in the middle. If vendors had a couple different food items, depending on regions (like your idea), it would give the entire concept of food a lot more flavor and immersiveness, but wouldn't take away any real incentive for players to make food. Sure, you can buy inn-quality goat meat and cheese from the Logjam, but that's it. You can't buy delicious fresh muffins, or lamb with mintspear sauce, or Granny's Special Meatloaf.

There would still be a nearly infinitely larger variety of foods that a player could make. It would just be the difference between having only completely generic rations and travel provisions available from vendors, and having some kind of flavorful option that makes them feel like real inns and food vendors, as opposed to just people who only stock hardtack and beef jerky in sacks behind the counter.

[Mr_Rieper]

So, to be clear, what I was proposing is this:
Currently, Nomad NPCs sell Rations and Travel Provisions. The same as the Logjam, the same as any other inn.
So for worldbuilding reasons, we give each settlement a speciality or preference for food. Guldorand doesn't have cows due to terrain, but it has goats. It has a smokehouse. Potatoes grow in poor soil. Venison from hunters.
Now in the Logjam, the Travel Provisions is renamed to Smoked Venison. It has a description about how the hunters of Guldorand like their meat. The Ration token is renamed to Goat's Cheese, and has a similar description.

Cordor likes their dairy, fruit and wine. Have their travel provisions and rations renamed to something else. The Sharps likes their rat meat. The Underdark as a whole eats rothe meat and fungi. The dwarves of Brog probably have a particular fondness for pork or spitroasted meat, and likely have a different, dark and rich kind of beer too. It's as simple as renaming the food items and descriptions. They may do the exact same thing, but for worldbuilding purposes, they DO matter.

Keep in mind the logistics of inventory space. Individual flavored items like this do not stack with even similarly visually placed counterparts or those that serve also an identical purpose. Already in inns like the Nomad there are a variety of drinks (beers and so on) that are unique. (Perhaps some of these items might be expanded to other inns?)

The underdark also has its own unique food staple, but the typical adventurer will gravitate towards whatever is efficient. That said, the Developers could well take your 'feedback' ideas into consideration. But as the suggestion thread is locked, that is one item on a long list that is already being worked on.

Players would most likely stick to just one type of food, yes. You can't really get around that, people don't like wasting inventory space. Unless the food items weren't inventory items at all, but that's something else. The price of avoiding homogeneous items available everywhere is that they won't stack. But I don't believe it will cause many problems.

I think it's worth doing. Making the settlements feel more unique, more alive and more 'real' will definitely help with immersion. It's not uncommon at all for characters to choose certain settlements as their home, and they'd likely enjoy the added flavor and allow it to influence their roleplay. You are what you eat.

[MissEvelyn]

Most useful gear isn't sold by vendors either. In a player-centered economy, it wouldn't make sense for vendors to suddenly start carrying a bunch of cool-themed foods, when the player character cooks are very well within their ability to make these themselves and distribute them, whether it be at social events or the taverns they work at.

There's also the inventory space, which is so extremely limited these days. Maybe adding a food bag could change everything. I'm kidding, we don't need more bags.

[Subutai]

Most useful gear isn't sold by vendors either. In a player-centered economy, it wouldn't make sense for vendors to suddenly start carrying a bunch of cool-themed foods, when the player character cooks are very well within their ability to make these themselves and distribute them, whether it be at social events or the taverns they work at.

There's also the inventory space, which is so extremely limited these days. Maybe adding a food bag could change everything. I'm kidding, we don't need more bags.

But more gear is sold by vendors than "Shirt" or "Knife". There's some assortment, it just isn't a large assortment.

I also don't think "Ration" or "Travel Provision" needs to go away. It only makes sense for adventurers to have a lot of dried food with them, just like if you're camping on hiking in real life. But it would be nice to be able to head up to Guldorand, get some roasted goat meat (or whatever), and eat some of that for a bit, just if you chose to, even if it was only right there in the inn.

[TimeAdept]

Which games have systems we like? I enjoyed making food in Zelda Breath of the Wild, for example.

That's because you could tinker with it and it gave you substantial buffs for the entirety of your playtime, whether 1 hour or 200 hours in. It also wasn't a requirement to stuff your face full of baked apples every 30 minutes or Link ran slower, climbed slower, and lost damage on every hit.

[Petrifictus]

What if we expand the system...
The Weight-meter: PCs need now watch over how much they eat. If you eat over 100% food, your character start to gain weight and turns large. They get slow debuff as penalty.

The Bathroom-meter: Your PCs has drank over 100% water and need to find nearest bush or whatever marked IG spot soon or else they suffer charisma penalty and the nearby characters are affected by the Tasha's Laughter.

Sorry... my bad... could not resist.

But back to being serious, I would love to see more food and drink recipes like spirits!

[Cortex]

Remove meters and instead add long term bonuses. With varying qualities. Saying that its part of the experience is like saying bug bites are part of camping and sightseeing. Its a nuisance and actually takes away from the real experience.

[Mr_Rieper]

Remove meters and instead add long term bonuses. With varying qualities. Saying that its part of the experience is like saying bug bites are part of camping and sightseeing. Its a nuisance and actually takes away from the real experience.

It's not a mechanical system for min maxing. It should never have anything to do with min maxing.

It's a system for roleplaying. It should encourage and assist roleplaying. If it had any sort of mechanical bonus that somehow related to combat, you can bet that people would focus on that one aspect and only that aspect.

It really isn't that much of a burden, even in its current state. You only lose 25% hunger over an hour of real time, at the rate of 2.5% hunger per tick, and that isn't even counting a lot of the other bonuses. You used to be able to gain 25% with -pray (not sure if you still can), I really don't understand why this system bothers people so much. I know it's boring, but a burden?

The whole point of gaining xp per hourly tick is that you ARE always roleplaying by keeping yourself fed and satiated. Of course Irongron is never going to remove it.

[Dr. B]

If realism is so important then why isn't there a "poop" and "pee" meter as well? Is all of that food and water just vanishing into nonexistence when my character consumes it? Let's show a little respect for the law of conservation of matter, here.

[Kenji]

I agree full time with Jagel here.
And definitely about the armor movements penelty I wish we got that one back.
Never understood why it was remove in the first place.

Heavy armor movement penalties don't really make all that much sense, tbh. Armor isn't all that heavy. If there was endurance, and you lost endurance more quickly when running in plate, sure, but wearing plate armor isn't really going to slow you down that much, particularly if you've been training in it.

Now carrying a 45lb tower shield strapped to one arm definitely would, but NWN doesn't really treat tower shields like normal DnD does anyway.

A well-fitted and proper suit of armor can still slow you down. Not as bad as most would think, but, in a full sprint, I know I won't be going at the same speed in a full suit of armor compared to without.

I'd say full chainmail (hauberk) has to be the worst to maneuver in, then plate, then leather, and then gambeson.

I digress, I personally felt that the movement speed penalty should have remained for full plate users, and then have the difference in movement speed in between half-plate and full plate.

(In my imagination, half-plate here is usually pieces of plates with punched holes and leather straps strapped on to joints, as opposed to full plates having a full-length piece of armor that are then connected to a gorget or a belt to evenly distribute the weights throughout the body)

[ReverentBlade]

Given that there is next to no variety in the purchasable foods and drinks, and little in the way of flavor text for regional dishes that might facilitate the immersion, I see no point to the system. The food items are so bland that my character ICly considers Arelith to be a culinary wasteland and will pull no punches in pointing out that everywhere sells the exact same packet of rations.

[The Kriv]

Honestly, it's because for good or ill the water system is very much part of the Arelith experience.

If I was making a system from scratch I might go a different route, but the water/food is more deeply woven into Arelith than one might think.

The work in fully stripping/reworking it would be huge task (removing all of that food from drops, rethinking recipes and resource distribution in hundreds of areas, the settlement resource system)

Absolutely not. There is literally no way I'm going to do all of that work to remove something that at very worse is a mild irritation. There is so much more to do for Arelith in so many places.

Also food/rest, some people love it, some people really don't. I can totally empathize with both but do not, even remotely, feel there can be any compromise there; this one really is subjective.

I don't think I'll follow this thread further, as this is not a topic I find remotely interesting. Really is one of the most banal features of the game to consider.

I have played on a no-hack server in the past that if your character's Hunger or Thirst reached a certain level, AND your character had food and/or water in their inventory, they would automatically consume it to prevent negative effects.

The issue then was the player's responsibility to make sure they had food/water in their inventory... and it was less ACTIVE, and a small bit more automated... BUT still requirement to stay aware of your supplies in active inventory,


on a side-note... this same server required you to carry a bed-roll to 'sleep' in the wilderness areas... and if you tried to sleep and DID not use a bedroll... then that act would FATIGUE you... instantly giving you negative con penalties. (ouch harsh!) -but the automated hunger/thirst I though twas very clever, and would enjoy seeing similar in Arelith.

[monkeywithstick]

The numerous different named beverages from the inns are all fundamentally identical.

Would be great to see a similar rotation of random food types in the inns.

[Peppermint]

Remove meters and instead add long term bonuses. With varying qualities. Saying that its part of the experience is like saying bug bites are part of camping and sightseeing. Its a nuisance and actually takes away from the real experience.

Honestly, for me? This.

Food and Water "systems" exist in many modern virtual worlds. But whereas Arelith's system (like many other antiquated ones) take the stick approach, modern games prefer the carrot. For example, "eat this food and you'll gain +3% xp from enemies/faster rest recovery/whatever".

Dismissing a change to food and water as unfeasible within Arelith's framework would, therefore, be patently silly. It would betray such staggering ignorance toward common online RPG design principles (as evidenced by many successful examples in MMOs, which also possess thriving food and water economies) that I can only assume it persists as a comfortable reminder of Arelith's roots.

Which is fine, I guess. Some people like that nostalgia thing. I don't, and it's not how I'd design a persistent world, but it is what it is.