Potential Upcoming Healpot Nerf - Feedback Needed

[OleBlighty]

Thank you for all the feedback. I will not be implementing a toxicity system. Healpots will still be getting nerfed, but we will go with a simpler method - either slightly lower CL, diminishing returns, or a cooldown.

Will higher CON play a factor at all?

No

Might I ask why percent healing (more HP=more healing) was not considered?

Thank you.

[CorsicanDoge]

Heal potions are kind of expensive. Isn't the one really losing here the person burning 50 heal potions? They're burning like 10 dungeon runs worth of gp in a small 5 minute PvP.

[-XXX-]

Heal potions are kind of expensive. Isn't the one really losing here the person burning 50 heal potions? They're burning like 10 dungeon runs worth of gp in a small 5 minute PvP.

No, they're not! It's easy to brew them in large quantities and certain spawns drop them as loot quite frequently.

[CorsicanDoge]

Heal potions are kind of expensive. Isn't the one really losing here the person burning 50 heal potions? They're burning like 10 dungeon runs worth of gp in a small 5 minute PvP.

No, they're not! It's easy to brew them in large quantities and certain spawns drop them as loot quite frequently.

Oh, I didn't know that. I guess I'll start getting herbalism because they are absolutely extortionate in the stalls.

[garrbear758]

Will higher CON play a factor at all?

No

Might I ask why percent healing (more HP=more healing) was not considered?

Thank you.

That disproportionately benefits warlock and barb wms, who don't need that kind of benefit.

[Skibbles]

I still fail to see how changing the heal potions is going to change any of these niche and rare "I saw this happen a few times" circumstances (well - it obviously will, but I meant that these circumstances will just change to different ones in a hellish whack-a-mole).

Dramatically shifting the Time to Kill of possibly every single pvp going forward (and those moments in pve when things go horribly wrong) is only going to shift us onto a burst meta and favor even more the unrewarding hair trigger 'throw the first punch while they're still typing' of the average pvp.

Watching two weaponmasters switching feats, using potions and counters and engaging for longer than the two seconds than a gank goes is *not* bad. That is good and should happen more! It's baffling to me that a long fight without a clear and instant winner, or a dynamic and unexpected result, is actually a bad thing.

If characters are having trouble murdering because their enemy can drink 6k gold a round then I'd say they need more allies, and I'm not particularly swayed by the idea that a draw is a bad thing (besides isn't a draw technically perfect balance).

I had to edit my first sentence as it was worded absolutely horridly.

[-stick-]

I still fail to see how changing the heal potions is going to change any of these niche and rare "I saw this happen a few times" circumstances (well - it obviously will, but I meant that these circumstances will just change to different ones in a hellish whack-a-mole).

Dramatically shifting the Time to Kill of possibly every single pvp going forward (and those moments in pve when things go horribly wrong) is only going to shift us onto a burst meta and favor even more the unrewarding hair trigger 'throw the first punch while they're still typing' of the average pvp.

Watching two weaponmasters switching feats, using potions and counters and engaging for longer than the two seconds than a gank goes is *not* bad. That is good and should happen more! It's baffling to me that a long fight without a clear and instant winner, or a dynamic and unexpected result, is actually a bad thing.

If characters are having trouble murdering because their enemy can drink 6k gold a round then I'd say they need more allies, and I'm not particularly swayed by the idea that a draw is a bad thing (besides isn't a draw technically perfect balance).

I had to edit my first sentence as it was worded absolutely horridly.

I Agree with you on most , but still it feels like the heal potion could use a short timer even a round just to prevent spamming it, this way the Healer class would shine again for its main purpose & increase the importance of the Heal skill maybe ...

[WanderingPoet]

No

Might I ask why percent healing (more HP=more healing) was not considered?

Thank you.

That disproportionately benefits warlock and barb wms, who don't need that kind of benefit.

Very good point about warlocks! It was my understanding that barb wms (as a strength character) were the ones you were trying to help with the healpot changes, though. I'm curious, who are you trying to help out in PVP if not a strength based character like a barb?

[AstralUniverse]

Heal potions are kind of expensive. Isn't the one really losing here the person burning 50 heal potions? They're burning like 10 dungeon runs worth of gp in a small 5 minute PvP.

I wish to echo this.

And I still dont understand what the problem with heal potions even is.
They are accessible to everyone, they heal everyone the same number of HP exactly so any change to them will effect everyone about equally (with low ac + low hp builds being the only exception that I can think of, and we dont have a lot of those in the meta).

They are expensive, and this means your hard work and grinding factor in your pvp outcome. Is that a bad thing necessarily? (real question).

I said in another thread that their DC is too low. Worth bringing it up here too. It should be raised to the mid 20s. Currently a character with gift of crafting can reach heal pots AND masterly damask weapons or, without gift of crafting, the high end outfits and heal pots. Shouldnt be the case imo.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

I said in another thread that their DC is too low. Worth bringing it up here too. It should be raised to the mid 20s. Currently a character with gift of crafting can reach heal pots AND masterly damask weapons. Shouldnt be the case imo.

I agree with this. As potent as healing potions are they should be at least a DC 46 to craft.

Heal potions are kind of expensive. Isn't the one really losing here the person burning 50 heal potions? They're burning like 10 dungeon runs worth of gp in a small 5 minute PvP.

Gold really only matters to new characters who are still leveling and/or working on their gear set. Let me give you a hypothetical example.

Character A was only made two months ago, he's reached level 30 and got all his gear but is mostly broke now. He can only afford 5 healing potions. He has one of the best builds though and is very enthusiastic about RPing.

Character B has been shelved for 2 years. They are level 30 with all their gear and also have 10 million in the bank. They have a stack of 100 heal potions. Their build is mediocre and they only show up when it is time to elect a new settlement leader.

These two get in a PVP and Character B just keeps chugging heal pots until Character A runs out and gets slowly whittled down. Character B goes to shelf until the next election again and Character A is frustrated and discouraged from playing because these veterans are not only sitting on stacks of heal pots but also mountains of adamantine and tier 3 runes and no matter how active he is or what he does in RP they'll always have the resources to out-compete him. So Character A rolls, Character B sticks around to show up every now and then and flaunt their wealth and influence they gained over 2 RL years ago.


tl;dr - It can be annoying when someone less active than you with a worse build can beat your character simply by having played longer and stockpiled enough heal pots. Heal pots being expensive only keeps them out of the hands of new characters and gives the established veteran characters who had time to stock up a significant advantage in PVP. (Edit: whether this is good or bad is subjective, imo it's bad because it gives too big of an advantage in PVP to the already established characters, who already have enough advantages in every other aspect of the game)

[AstralUniverse]

Character A was only made two months ago, he's reached level 30 and got all his gear but is mostly broke now. He can only afford 5 healing potions. He has one of the best builds though and is very enthusiastic about RPing.

Character B has been shelved for 2 years. They are level 30 with all their gear and also have 10 million in the bank. They have a stack of 100 heal potions. Their build is mediocre and they only show up when it is time to elect a new settlement leader.

These two get in a PVP and Character B just keeps chugging heal pots until Character A runs out and gets slowly whittled down. Character B goes to shelf until the next election again and Character A is frustrated and discouraged from playing because these veterans are not only sitting on stacks of heal pots but also mountains of adamantine and tier 3 runes and no matter how active he is or what he does in RP they'll always have the resources to out-compete him. So Character A rolls, Character B sticks around to show up every now and then and flaunt their wealth and influence they gained over 2 RL years ago.

In this example, nothing is stopping character A from just keep playing and eventually becoming character B (except that part where they shelve and show up only for elections. that shouldnt be encouraged) and have 100 heal pots.

I agree with this. As potent as healing potions are they should be at least a DC 46 to craft.

For the record, what I had in mind is more in the 25-27 area.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Character A was only made two months ago, he's reached level 30 and got all his gear but is mostly broke now. He can only afford 5 healing potions. He has one of the best builds though and is very enthusiastic about RPing.

Character B has been shelved for 2 years. They are level 30 with all their gear and also have 10 million in the bank. They have a stack of 100 heal potions. Their build is mediocre and they only show up when it is time to elect a new settlement leader.

These two get in a PVP and Character B just keeps chugging heal pots until Character A runs out and gets slowly whittled down. Character B goes to shelf until the next election again and Character A is frustrated and discouraged from playing because these veterans are not only sitting on stacks of heal pots but also mountains of adamantine and tier 3 runes and no matter how active he is or what he does in RP they'll always have the resources to out-compete him. So Character A rolls, Character B sticks around to show up every now and then and flaunt their wealth and influence they gained over 2 RL years ago.

In this example, nothing is stopping character A from just keep playing and eventually becoming character B (except that part where they shelve and show up only for elections. that shouldnt be encouraged) and have 100 heal pots.

I agree with this. As potent as healing potions are they should be at least a DC 46 to craft.

For the record, what I had in mind is more in the 25-27 area.

Honestly, there is too much of character B. Some of the faction leaders currently on Arelith are the same people who were leading those same factions several RL years ago when I started playing, leaving no room for others to ever fill those positions or create new role play. And it's not like these people are active either, they mostly only show up for elections and DM events. But I'm getting off-topic here.

After thinking about it more, just slapping a 30 second cooldown on heal pots like we have with clarity potions would solve all the problems with them. If a character can't survive 30 seconds without constant back-to-back heals then they probably deserve to be worm food. As for crafting DC, I think it should be 40+, there is no reason characters still doing writs need anything stronger than a potion of cure critical wounds, which is easy to farm over 100 of in a day.

[Skibbles]

I'm not sure the healing potions are in 'characters are rolling out of frustration' territory, but I think the spirit of the example is in the vein of any nerfs must be in such a manner (like reduction of availability versus cooldowns etc) so to avoid grandfathered characters dusting off their heal stack.

I agree that the potions are not jaw-dropping expensive for many well off characters, or even fresh 30s, but again most pvp I've seen isn't a 1v1 battledome potion-off, just some. I have to take it completely on faith this is happening to a worrying amount on Arelith as I've never seen these gratuitous stories before personally, even after almost a decade of play, but have heard of it once (the character still lost and everyone ripped on him for it IG - as it should be).

That's where I think the heart of the matter lies: All PvP and TTK will change into an even faster trip to the fugue in order to address loud edge cases, a portion of which are theoretical. Are these cases important enough to change all the normal cases?

In the example we read a player couldn't kill a veteran character because they went through their heal reserve in a lengthy battle of attrition. This player is understandably frustrated because otherwise he feels he would have won.

What about the player who took 300 damage in an opening salvo while they were still RPing instead of getting the first punch in, and their one allotted heal will barely clear half that damage? Won't they be really frustrated too?

Now I'd compare the two - a long battle where you at least feel like you have a chance, or a savage trip to the fugue in the upcoming alpha/frontloading damage meta. I think I still prefer the former.

Ultimately there's an unsaid statement in all of this, in my opinion, and that is, "Characters aren't dying fast enough. It should be much faster."

My answer is no, please, it's fast enough usually.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

In the example we read a player couldn't kill a veteran character because they went through their heal reserve in a lengthy battle of attrition. This player is understandably frustrated because otherwise he feels he would have won.

What about the player who took 300 damage in an opening salvo while they were still RPing instead of getting the first punch in, and their one allotted heal will barely clear half that damage? Won't they be really frustrated too?

I would like to respond to this.

Firstly, I'd like to clarify that I've been on every end of this spectrum. I've been the new player against a veteran with 100 heal pots and other goodies I couldn't afford yet. I've also been the veteran with 100 heal pots against the newbie. I've been the one to sit and drink heal potions until the two people attacking me run out of spell slots and divine wrath. So yeah, I think I know what I'm talking about here and to be honest I'm shooting myself in the foot by taking a stance against veterans in this case because I can probably make as good of use of heal pot spam as anyone else and have the means to get them.

I don't care if you frame the hypothetical argument in a way that makes the new player the bad guy and the veteran the good guy.

My point is, do veteran players REALLY need 100 heal spells at no cost of piety or spell components or anything on top of also having the best quarters and the most influence over settlements and the most connections and best gear and so on and so on? A level 30 who has been playing 2 RL months should be able to stand a chance against a level 30 who has been playing 2 RL years. There needs to be some limit to heal potions other than how much gold you have, and I think a 30 second cooldown is reasonable. A toxicity meter would just be finicky and probably have bugs and exploits and all kinds of issues when transitioning servers or joining with a different player name for example.

[MissEvelyn]

Will this make healers more attractive to play? Then I am sold

[Seven Sons of Sin]

My point is, do veteran players REALLY need 100 heal spells at no cost of piety or spell components or anything on top of also having the best quarters and the most influence over settlements and the most connections and best gear and so on and so on? A level 30 who has been playing 2 RL months should be able to stand a chance against a level 30 who has been playing 2 RL years.

I love your rage and relate to it on many levels, but I think approaching suggestions with such angst isn't good.

Oftentimes those 2 year-old epics can have just as little resources as the 2-month old epic. What you're really going after is entrenched cliques and hoarders and money making settlement hogging grubbers -

and yeah, that's fair. But this seems like something to solve IC, rather than go after mechanics to disenfranchise them.

Just rest easy knowing you're not alone. It's not like these people are all-stars, anyhow.

[Rasha]

Whenever you hear of a 3 vs 15 where the three won, you can almost guarantee it was the result of heal potion spam.

[AstralUniverse]

Whenever you hear of a 3 vs 15 where the three won, you can almost guarantee it was the result of heal potion spam.

It can also be 1 wild mage XD

[NPC Logger Number 2]

My point is, do veteran players REALLY need 100 heal spells at no cost of piety or spell components or anything on top of also having the best quarters and the most influence over settlements and the most connections and best gear and so on and so on? A level 30 who has been playing 2 RL months should be able to stand a chance against a level 30 who has been playing 2 RL years.

I love your rage and relate to it on many levels, but I think approaching suggestions with such angst isn't good.

Oftentimes those 2 year-old epics can have just as little resources as the 2-month old epic. What you're really going after is entrenched cliques and hoarders and money making settlement hogging grubbers -

and yeah, that's fair. But this seems like something to solve IC, rather than go after mechanics to disenfranchise them.

Just rest easy knowing you're not alone. It's not like these people are all-stars, anyhow.

I benefit just as much as anyone from heal pot spam because I can go dump a million gold on heal pots with a ridiculously high AC high AB high saves character who already has all those other advantages I mentioned and solo entire groups of fully warded epic PC's. I just don't think it would be very fair or sporting. I'm not really raging just stating things in a matter of fact way which I know some people do not like for some reason. Like I said, I'm mostly shooting myself in the foot here by suggesting a cooldown. However rich a character is, I think most of us can agree there's enough advantages to being wealthy and well established without having 100 heal spells on a button with no cooldown or anything.

[Skibbles]

Healers are incredibly strong already, just from the massive temporary health alone (in a sizable party you're looking at frontloading over a thousand hp to a group) without looking at all the other cookies, so it's a first for me to see it mentioned a few times that they aren't. In fact I'd say if heal potions go away then the healer will absolutely need some serious sweeping nerfs if not outright removal when they become an overnight win button. That's a different conversation, and one that will immediately come up after the change.

What is also a different conversation is treating a heal pot nerf, something that will absolutely effect everyone, as a necessary nerf because veteran bad.

The fact alone that the argument assumes all veteran characters carry 100 heal potions and abuse heal spam is just ridiculous. It sounds to me like you're part of the problem and projecting that, therefore, everyone must be.

There's plenty of millionaire veteran characters that don't tote around ten pounds of heal potions because running around slaying people while oiled in healing isn't a fun and engaging priority for everyone, and fewer still that do and consistently win every single battle from that fact alone.

Worth asking since it's projected that 100 heal stacks are a veteran-only issue: Am I the only one getting a fresh level 30 with half a million gold extra after basic gearing? Isn't it doublethink to say that gold/availability isn't the problem, but also all new characters are too poor to have their own sizeable stack?

Average market price, in Andunor at least, is around 2700, give or take, but we can go with 'I bought these in the hub because I didn't know better at 3000.'

Thats 300k. My last four characters could all afford that at 30, assuming I found it that important to have 100 right away and that 60 just wouldn't cut it for any one pvp because we all know most pvp involves at least 70 heal potions.

Arelith is going from a collaborative storytelling game to an aggressive e-sport as people dredge up these horrific hyper-optimized 'problems' of their own accord and then sweepingly project everyone is doing it constantly when it's just not the case. Yes, some people are, but do we need to punish everyone for it? What are the numbers? How many characters have 80-100 stacks and how many do not? How many characters with a huge heal stack are aggressively pursuing pvp and how many without them are not? There's probably a way to know some of this quite easily and I think the community deserves to know at least some of these facts.

Don't get me wrong though: a heal pot nerf is going to directly benefit me personally, big time for the foreseeable future, both in reality and in the theoretical arguments, so I'm not making these arguments out of my own self interest in 'winning' because as it stands I should have been and will continue to, in theory, constantly lose. I'm okay with this.

I just don't want the meta to further swing towards burst pvp in 30 seconds or less or git gud. I cannot imagine a more unsatisfying meta for Arelith to willfully embrace.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Arelith is going from a collaborative storytelling game to an aggressive e-sport as people dredge up these horrific hyper-optimized 'problems' of their own accord and then sweepingly project everyone is doing it constantly when it's just not the case. Yes, some people are, but do we need to punish everyone for it? What are the numbers? How many characters have 80-100 stacks and how many do not? How many characters with a huge heal stack are aggressively pursuing pvp and how many without them are not? There's probably a way to know some of this quite easily and I think the community deserves to know at least some of these facts.

I don't have the numbers but I'll say this. If you can have 100 heal spells on a button with no cooldown why would you NOT do it? If two people get into PVP and one of them has a stack of heal pots and the other doesn't, that creates a considerable advantage for the one who does. And honestly, people cheesing with heal pots to win seems a lot more like an e-sport than a 30 second death match between two swordsmen which is actually pretty realistic. I think your issue must be with PVP itself and how quick people are to resort to it, because by the time someone starts spamming heal pots the story-telling RP is probably over anyways.

[mjones3]

My solution to this issue would be to make healing potions not stack. You want 10? you're 1/4 of an inventory page for those 10.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Why stop there? Remove the crafting recipe for them and make them a 1% drop from epic chests too while we're at it. The cure potions have all been buffed and honestly a Potion of Cure Critical Wounds is more than good enough and easy to get.

[mjones3]

Because we are discussing ways to balance healing potions, not all but removing them from the game.

It would force long established characters to be forced to pick and choose what they wish to keep. Do they want this cool RP item that's a memento of another character who rolled? Do you want this cool spear that does aura of vitality once a day? Am I going to get full equipment to deal with locks or stop half way? Do I want a spare cloak of displacement for my str char just so I can use Improved Invisibility for free twice a day? Or do they want to be able to chug healing pots when the going gets rough?

[AstralUniverse]

Because we are discussing ways to balance healing potions, not all but removing them from the game.

It would force long established characters to be forced to pick and choose what they wish to keep. Do they want this cool RP item that's a memento of another character who rolled? Do you want this cool spear that does aura of vitality once a day? Am I going to get full equipment to deal with locks or stop half way? Do I want a spare cloak of displacement for my str char just so I can use Improved Invisibility for free twice a day? Or do they want to be able to chug healing pots when the going gets rough?

I see a lot of logic and sense behind this idea and its by far not the worst I've heard but.... please... No. I really dont want this to become a norm to sacrifice an entire page for potions and counting other people's healing pots and making memes later. No.