Harpers and Zhents

[Stop. Ninja Time]

As other classes continue to get more updates, it's features are less an issue, namely stuff like planar turning. However stuff like eschew focus shouldnt be a thing unique to a closed faction. I am fine if they get if basicaly free with their other benefits with everyone else paying a feat tax, but making eschew not an option at all kind of taunts like every trueflame who doesnt muster up good RP to be a zhent/harper. Now we can just play warlock for no component infini casting, or just cast more maximized IGMS instead of actually lvl 9 spells. But is kind of a weird cookie/taunt to everyone's face to have such a QoL thing locked behind that.

I agree entirely.

I'm not necessarily against classes being gated behind an app, but I do think it's led to other issues besides people having to app to get them.

1) People play them solely for the bonuses, and not the rp involved. This leads to the organization feeling very spread out as opposed to a small cell of harper operatives working together to keep the balance between good and evil shifting too heavily towards the side of evil. I'm sure there have been stretches where it felt like that, but through conversations I know that I am not alone in thinking that passing another harper when playing one felt more like two ships passing in the night than being part of a like-minded organization.

2) You have to plan to be in the harpers on creation because of build considerations more often than not, which eliminates the best way to run these sorts of factions: A player does stuff that attracts the attention of the harpers, the harpers invite them in.

3) you can apply the two above to zhents as well, but really, this should have been an organization that actually operates from the shadows as opposed to an organization that can sometimes work covertly but pretty much everyone knows they exist. Cult of the Dragon, some sort of made up sharran/cyric/mask organization ... Anyways, that's just my opinion and not really relevant.

Your #2 is a really good point as well, you can't join the harper/zhent factions after character creation unless you relevel since you -have- to take the class. Which means you entirely lose the RP opportunities (barring choosing to lose all your skills/abilities while you relevel) to meet a harper and join naturally, or figure them out and have them bring you in, or all sorts of interesting reasons for joining.

#1 I had both experiences, I had a tight knit group of harpers that played really well off eachother and I've also seen plenty of harpers that never came to a single meeting and never participated with the rest of the faction and were like, as you put it, two ships passing in the night. There have of course been the -disagreements-, about how to operate, and even attempts to have harpers removed because members thought they were fallen harpers- but that at least is actual RPing together.

I mean… have you tried just applying? The DM’s are not jerks, lol. If you come to then with a reasonable idea for RP that fits into the arelith setting, I highly doubt they turn you away. Probably something as simple as another foot soldier to bolster the ranks of xyz and some background on your character would do the trick. Don’t do it just to do it, roleplay the character.

I said earlier that I've played a harper, yes. I also know people that have had interesting stories that have been denied from it. That isn't really a counter to my point that you have classes locked that offer a lot of RP value, that are locked behind specific RP. Yes, you could make up 'something as simple as another foot soldier to bolster the ranks' but look at what I wrote about how the classes could be used for a lot of wide RP concepts - none of those are harpers or zhents. I have not once claimed that the DMs are jerks or claimed fault with the application to join the harper/zhent faction, just an issue with the locked -classes-.

The applications exist pretty much entirely for the roleplay strictures of playing such a class, especially the secresy aspect. They (or at least Harper) have ALWAYS been app locked - or at least have been for as long as I've been playing (about 15 years), back when Harper Scout was pretty much vanilla harper scout from NWN, for the above reason.

If there's an issue with them being overly mechanicaly powerful, then that needs to be dealt with by nurfing them, not by removing any app requirement.

With all due respect, GrumpyCat, something -ALWAYS- being locked isn't a good reason to not consider changing it. I entirely agree that the faction should have app locking to ensure that the roleplay of the factions meets expectations. To sound like a broken record though - why lock -9- classes behind a specific faction when you can open them up to dozens of more concepts and just lock the factions?

After all, we don't app-lock paladins and force them to join the radiant heart, or app-lock druids and force them into the Heartwood Grove, or app-lock wizards and force them into the arcane tower. So why make nine classes that are both unique and faction locked?

The applications exist pretty much entirely for the roleplay strictures of playing such a class, especially the secresy aspect. They (or at least Harper) have ALWAYS been app locked - or at least have been for as long as I've been playing (about 15 years), back when Harper Scout was pretty much vanilla harper scout from NWN, for the above reason.

If there's an issue with them being overly mechanicaly powerful, then that needs to be dealt with by nurfing them, not by removing any app requirement.

I think the OP meant that the factions (aka, the Harper and Zhent organizations, their pins, their base, their RP and secrecy) all remain exactly as it is right now. The classes themselves, on a purely mechanical level and without pins/RP/secrets, will be unlocked for everyone, not because they are overpowered (although some play claim they are) but because they offers interesting cookies and tools other characters would also like to use.

Yes, 100% what I mean. I 100% want to have eschew materials for example, because I cannot have fun playing a wiz/sorc without it, and I'm not about to come up with silly reasons to join the harpers/zhents just to be able to have eschew materials.

If these classes are so tightly locked away why does it matter if they have a slightly better rewards to level investment ratio?

I mean really, what are the chances that you will actually get into PvP with a Harper or Zhent and that it'll then come down to the itsy bitsy extra feat or two that they get but you don't?

Look at it the other way. How would you feel if all you were not allowed to play any PRC without an application. Would you not feel a little blah that the WM is much stronger than your 27fighter/3 rogue? Would it not be frustrating that your options for character creation were severely limited unless you came up with the perfect reason for the PRC and yet could still be denied?

Fun fact, PRCs used to be app locked on Arelith. They aren't any longer. While I don't claim to know -why- they were unlocked (I suspect in part to reduce DM burden, like with PMs) but the server is definitely 100% better for it.

I want options, because options make the game more fun, make the RP more fun.

But yes, it is -also- rather unfair if specific factions are more powerful than other factions because of class-locked applications. That is just -one more reason-, not the main one, to unlock them.

[Ork]

You want what is in the PrC but refuse to make a character that would be a part of these factions. Hm.

[Richrd]

Look at it the other way. How would you feel if all you were not allowed to play any PRC without an application. Would you not feel a little blah that the WM is much stronger than your 27fighter/3 rogue? Would it not be frustrating that your options for character creation were severely limited unless you came up with the perfect reason for the PRC and yet could still be denied?

Sure it'd feel "blah". Luckily that isn't the case on Arelith. And what a "perfect" reason is to you can be a horrible idea to someone else.

Fun fact, PRCs used to be app locked on Arelith. They aren't any longer. While I don't claim to know -why- they were unlocked (I suspect in part to reduce DM burden, like with PMs) but the server is definitely 100% better for it.

Good thing that we have so many options, right?

I want options, because options make the game more fun, make the RP more fun.

There's 11 non-PRC classes to choose from. Tons of options.

But yes, it is -also- rather unfair if specific factions are more powerful than other factions because of class-locked applications. That is just -one more reason-, not the main one, to unlock them.

Being part of those factions usually locks you into facing harsher conflicts more often than the usual Joe, so that's alright I think.

[The GrumpyCat]

With all due respect, GrumpyCat, something -ALWAYS- being locked isn't a good reason to not consider changing it. I entirely agree that the faction should have app locking to ensure that the roleplay of the factions meets expectations. To sound like a broken record though - why lock -9- classes behind a specific faction when you can open them up to dozens of more concepts and just lock the factions?

After all, we don't app-lock paladins and force them to join the radiant heart, or app-lock druids and force them into the Heartwood Grove, or app-lock wizards and force them into the arcane tower. So why make nine classes that are both unique and faction locked?

I mean, Harpers... (Zhents are far newer so I'll just talk about Harpers for now as I know them best, but I think much of what I say applies to both...) have always been a little wierd.

Back in the day - you needed the token to be 'recognised' by other harpers as a harper... but you didn't actually need to take any of the harper classes. Indeed I've played a few ex harpers and, until it was made mandatory - none of them had the Harper Scout Class.

But of course - after a bit it was made mandatory. The reasoning being that if one is part of a secret organization one should have the stats to allow it (bluff, et cetera). Only later on did the whole new classes, specific hide out, et cetera come into it. But origionaly the app was more to join the faction, than to take the class.

I suppose what this comes down to - and I'm not even going to offer any huge answers - is how much we want to tie certain sorts of RP rp to classes? How much we want to enforce that?

I said earlier that I've played a harper, yes. I also know people that have had interesting stories that have been denied from it. That isn't really a counter to my point that you have classes locked that offer a lot of RP value, that are locked behind specific RP. Yes, you could make up 'something as simple as another foot soldier to bolster the ranks' but look at what I wrote about how the classes could be used for a lot of wide RP concepts - none of those are harpers or zhents. I have not once claimed that the DMs are jerks or claimed fault with the application to join the harper/zhent faction, just an issue with the locked -classes-.

But isn't this true of a lot of things on Arelith?
We have entire reaces locked behind specific rp. Take Drow, and the monster races - The only difference there is it's juded /in play/ rather than at character creation.

The same is true with classes beyond Harper too - in fact true of pretty much any class that has an alignment restriction. Again we tend to be quite gentle with this - but it remains true.

If we want to seperate the... 'faction' of Harpers/Zhents from the 'mechanics' of Harpers/Zhents then doesn't that lead to a rather odd situation? A lot of the mechanics around them are based around being secretive, espianagy, sneaky...

it's a little like saying 'Ok so there's Raident Heart - which accepts anyone at all that's Good aligned- and Paladins, which is just a mechanical class which can be any alignment you want.'

I mean ti's... an option? And I'm not entirely against it I suppose? But it seems a little... odd.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I have a lot to say about the subject of the Harpers in general, although not so much to say about the class being token locked, other than the fact that as is, I'm absolutely in favor of it continuing to remain token locked, and perhaps taken a more active top-side interest in. IMO this, like the Zhentarim, is a faction that should probably have a DM dedicated to the position for active plotlines, whether they're fully fleshed out journeys into custom module areas or something vague that can be executed completely player-side, like "This settlement/group/individual's current goings-on are not beneficial to thing X we're trying to achieve, here's Y thing(s) you can do to change that."

My experience of the Harpers is that as a whole, the way the faction operates was nothing like the actual Forgotten Realms Harpers.

Harpers receive divine blessings from numerous Good gods that in fact collectively approved of, in person, their formation, and the gods give them their Harper powers(feats) on much the same set of morality and ethics guidelines that a paladin, cleric, warlock, or blackguard, or druid gets, except with their own unique flavor of rules. Three of the base vanilla Harper Scout feats include the names of three different specific gods. Being a Harper might actually be, lore-wise, the only thing more behaviorally monitored than paladins.

You can imagine my surprise when my induction to the order then, was the assassination of a diplomat in a private meeting room, in broad daylight, and it wasn't a test - when I screwed up the poison job, the NPC fixed it and finished the job.

This premise was not even nominally acknowledged out loud by the majority of the faction that I interacted with in my time playing one, PC or NPC, and throughout my personal experiences (and via some second-hand ones) quite a few Harpers (again, PC and NPC) flagrantly violate some of these precepts on the premise of the ends justifying the means. The only part of the Harper Creed that gets much attention out loud is "Whatever it takes, a Harper will do. Pride never rules the deeds of a true Harper," in order to conflate pride with moral rectitude and result in the ends justifying the means.

We all know how well that's supposed to work out for divine classes, even if we tend to be lenient about it here.

I'm not saying that whole concept can't be cool - I'm saying it's false advertising, and if that's the direction those in charge of the Harper faction would like to take, then they should call it something else or push the Dark Star faction plot forward into the timeline and actively encourage it.

It's been a couple of years now, so this might all be out of date- but this was my overall experience and perception of the Harpers, although there were some exceptions that I can't give a proper nod to without outing potentially active players/plots.

[-XXX-]

Back in the day - you needed the token to be 'recognised' by other harpers as a harper... but you didn't actually need to take any of the harper classes. Indeed I've played a few ex harpers and, until it was made mandatory - none of them had the Harper Scout Class.

IMO what you are pointing out is the classic egg or chicken dilemma: it takes time and some serious RP effort to join that kind of secret organisation organically, the PrC is needed to get in and you can't take it before you're in.

Especially in today's environment where reaching max lvl is often a matter of days and builds require some serious pre-planning, this pretty much means OOC arrangements need to be made before the character's creation (either that or using -relevel to cause a tangible paradigm shift in the character concept).


At the same time we have two secret organizations with tailored PrCs and heavy DM supervision:
Make the PrCs too weak and nobody will take them, make them too strong and the DM pets will get all the cookies.

Finally, this introduces the Paladin dilemma - what if one of the harper/zhent characters goes rogue? Will their PrC be forcably removed? Will the DMs step in trying to moderate RP on a large scale each time, the way it's been done with the Mila Brown plot?


Dunno, the way the harpers/zhents are implemented right now seems very unelegant and convoluted to me.

[Distant Relation]

^

The one time in-game where I have been exposed ICly to Arelith's Harpers, as an outsider who briefly entered their circle of trust, the conversations revolved entirely about people that needed to be assassinated (meaning, open daylight pvp, of course). In fact, I was quite surprised at how many prolific, well known pvp'ers were in the same room I was.

Like you say, I was left with an inkling that the Harpers of Arelith are a heavily distorted shadow of the lore Harpers, and that coupled with their rather powerful classes (at the time) and their approval-only nature did leave me with a bit of a feeling that they're a playground for the favorites to do as they please under the guise of a faction. I have no idea if I've interacted with any Harpers since then on any of my characters.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

^

The one time in-game where I have been exposed ICly to Arelith's Harpers, as an outsider who briefly entered their circle of trust, the conversations revolved entirely about people that needed to be assassinated (meaning, open daylight pvp, of course). In fact, I was quite surprised at how many prolific, well known pvp'ers were in the same room I was.

Like you say, I was left with an inkling that the Harpers of Arelith are a heavily distorted shadow of the lore Harpers, and that coupled with their rather powerful classes (at the time) and their approval-only nature did leave me with a bit of a feeling that they're a playground for the favorites to do as they please under the guise of a faction. I have no idea if I've interacted with any Harpers since then on any of my characters.

said players go through different characters, so i doubt its the exact rotation of players in the faction as the regular core. I wouldnt know though, just my guess and the few people I known to be harpers in the past not being PvPers. Of course some would object the seperation for non pvper and pvper. BUT PLEASE LET US NOT GO THERE (but perhaps refrain from such binary labels, and have 'pvp oriented players' which isn't necessarily even someone who does a lot of PvP. I don't know its an odd topic)

[Red Ropes]

harpers assassinate evil people

harpers fight evil people

harpers are considered anarchists' and murderers by the tyrannous, intrigue filled lands of southern faerun (because for tyrants, they are)

harpers are considered heroic liberators in the north because they're just roaming adventurers who respect women, work with druids, and kill evil dragons/orcs

harpers kill evil people

harpers have openly assassinated leaders of Moonsea City dictatorships and then put a glowing silver Harp on them so they knew who did it

all of the high harpers are heroic adventurers who go around blowing up bad guys and stealing stuff from Jeff Bezos

harpers literally have a "UNWRITTEN CODE" because they just memorize it and regurgitate it to each other but one of those rules is they kill people who betray the harpers because uh... if they are heroic agents of freedom and right.... people who betray them are the opposite of that and can do a lot of damage by knowing too much

They are heroic adventurers who kill monsters and bad guys. Sure they involve themselves in intrigues and manipulations but they are a PROACTIVE, even sometimes /violent/ force in the Realms. No they don't want normal people to live in fear of their wrath but they absolutely want tyrants to think twice about abusing the land or the folk.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki ... _Moonblade (a literal harper assassin)

The server is also set in a particular time when the "least moral" of the Harpers have been kicked out and are currently in a quasi-exiled, blacklisted faction known as the Moonstars who are like super unethical because Khelben read a fortune cookie and believes he is the chosen one in a prophecy.

Some Harpers are pacifists, others might be psycho chad barbarians who bust the skulls of jack booted government thugs in broad daylight because they can, and all of them are trying to work toward peace / freedom / safety. They're idealists but not naive - they think a world in which Myth Drannor can live again is possible, that one day, when enough people see that Men and Non-Human can hold hands, that they can live with nature and not against it. But they absolutely know you're going to have to kill some (objectively evil obstacles) to get there, with kindness or with swords. Both work.

---

Anyway I think the classes are just unnecessarily bland, they have none of the soul or following that the actual tabletop PrCs have. While some might be overtuned and the others are just "okay", I think they require too much and rely way too much upon mechanics to really be healthy but its not something easily changed either.

Were I the one voice and the grand sceptre on the call I'd just pull everything and make "Zhentarim Agent" and "Harper Scout" as two separate but one size fits all things that acts like a dip for builds.

Something like - has access to all skills, gets all of the cool stuff by level 3 (ie, vote meddling), and doesn't really count against you too much so that we can have Monk 25/5 or 27/3s who are not gimped by it, or warlocks, or whatever.

[Wings of Peace]

Are Harpers/Zhents not just soft tools for the dm team? That was my impression since at least one of the sides has hosted a dm pc. Otherwise there's nothing of value the prcs really add to the storytelling that couldn't be accomplished in a less ridiculous manner. Atm the Harpers for example typically just help reinforce the dominance of certain surface factions that have been dominant in their settlements for ages.

[Distant Relation]

^

I get you, and I do clarify that I have a sample size of one meeting, but these people weren't exactly planning a high profile assassination of a known tyrant. It was regular folk that had slighted them. *shrug*

[Wings of Peace]

harpers assassinate evil people

harpers fight evil people

harpers are considered anarchists' and murderers by the tyrannous, intrigue filled lands of southern faerun (because for tyrants, they are)

harpers are considered heroic liberators in the north because they're just roaming adventurers who respect women, work with druids, and kill evil dragons/orcs

harpers kill evil people

harpers have openly assassinated leaders of Moonsea City dictatorships and then put a glowing silver Harp on them so they knew who did it

all of the high harpers are heroic adventurers who go around blowing up bad guys and stealing stuff from Jeff Bezos

harpers literally have a "UNWRITTEN CODE" because they just memorize it and regurgitate it to each other but one of those rules is they kill people who betray the harpers because uh... if they are heroic agents of freedom and right.... people who betray them are the opposite of that and can do a lot of damage by knowing too much

They are heroic adventurers who kill monsters and bad guys. Sure they involve themselves in intrigues and manipulations but they are a PROACTIVE, even sometimes /violent/ force in the Realms. No they don't want normal people to live in fear of their wrath but they absolutely want tyrants to think twice about abusing the land or the folk.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki ... _Moonblade (a literal harper assassin)

The server is also set in a particular time when the "least moral" of the Harpers have been kicked out and are currently in a quasi-exiled, blacklisted faction known as the Moonstars who are like super unethical because Khelben read a fortune cookie and believes he is the chosen one in a prophecy.

Some Harpers are pacifists, others might be psycho chad barbarians who bust the skulls of jack booted government thugs in broad daylight because they can, and all of them are trying to work toward peace / freedom / safety. They're idealists but not naive - they think a world in which Myth Drannor can live again is possible, that one day, when enough people see that Men and Non-Human can hold hands, that they can live with nature and not against it. But they absolutely know you're going to have to kill some (objectively evil obstacles) to get there, with kindness or with swords. Both work.

---

Anyway I think the classes are just unnecessarily bland, they have none of the soul or following that the actual tabletop PrCs have. While some might be overtuned and the others are just "okay", I think they require too much and rely way too much upon mechanics to really be healthy but its not something easily changed either.

Were I the one voice and the grand sceptre on the call I'd just pull everything and make "Zhentarim Agent" and "Harper Scout" as two separate but one size fits all things that acts like a dip for builds.

Something like - has access to all skills, gets all of the cool stuff by level 3 (ie, vote meddling), and doesn't really count against you too much so that we can have Monk 25/5 or 27/3s who are not gimped by it, or warlocks, or whatever.

I'm not really sure I see the relevance of this when most of the criticism has been about the class balance and impact on server. The server has no shortage of pvp oriented factions nor a shortage of inrigue-addicts who try to play the spy network game. Whatever the Harpers are in the setting, it doesn't necessitate there being an advantaged prc that's gated behind a token. If anything, since the token is there to gatekeep people who might abuse the class you'd think the Harper prc should be disadvantaged since presumably the applicants will be able to manage the intrigue and assassination outcomes through actual roleplay instead of needing mechanical assistance.

Edit: You could even just keep the token and axe the classes imo. It's not like the Harper/Zhent bases lack for useful rp cookies.

[Distant Relation]

I'm not really sure I see the relevance of this when most of the criticism has been about the class balance and impact on server.

I believe that was in reply to mine and Aelryn Bloodmoon's posts. To be frank, we somewhat went on a tangent about the RP implications of the Harpers more so than the classes themselves.

I still think it intrinsically ties back to the original subject. These classes are well loaded with mechanical power and build opportunities. They're five, very compact, very feature rich levels that often only cost a class slot. They are very attractive to build with if you're trying to squeeze every iota of performance out of a build, and (here's where my admittedly highly subjective opinion comes in), they somewhat distort the supposed RP angle of the classes if they're being built for mechanical power primarily.

[Wings of Peace]

I'm not really sure I see the relevance of this when most of the criticism has been about the class balance and impact on server.

I believe that was in reply to mine and Aelryn Bloodmoon's posts. To be frank, we somewhat went on a tangent about the RP implications of the Harpers more so than the classes themselves.

I still think it intrinsically ties back to the original subject. These classes are well loaded with mechanical power and build opportunities. They're five, very compact, very feature rich levels that often only cost a class slot. They are very attractive to build with if you're trying to squeeze every iota of performance out of a build, and (here's where my admittedly highly subjective opinion comes in), they somewhat distort the supposed RP angle of the classes if they're being built for mechanical power primarily.

That's fair. Since there was no quote I ended up jumping to conclusions based on the nearest posts. I do agree though, especially when building things like corner sneak casters since these prcs are some of the best ways to accomplish that for certain builds after the BG nerf.

[The GrumpyCat]

Finally, this introduces the Paladin dilemma - what if one of the harper/zhent characters goes rogue? Will their PrC be forcably removed? Will the DMs step in trying to moderate RP on a large scale each time, the way it's been done with the Mila Brown plot?

It's actually a bit worse than that, and explains one very large reason why the classes (or at least the group) is behind a token requirement. Harpers/Zhents work on secresy. If a Paladin decides to become a baby murdering monster - well then the player might loose their pc, or get it nurfed badly but ultimatly that's one player. A Harper who decideds it'd be cool to 'Out' other harpers (or a Zent pc who does the same) instantly makes things really difficult not just for themselves, but also for lots of other Harper PCs. It's why in the app we want to be sure that the player understands the secresy aspect of things.

Are Harpers/Zhents not just soft tools for the dm team? That was my impression since at least one of the sides has hosted a dm pc. Otherwise there's nothing of value the prcs really add to the storytelling that couldn't be accomplished in a less ridiculous manner. Atm the Harpers for example typically just help reinforce the dominance of certain surface factions that have been dominant in their settlements for ages.

That's really not the case. That's not to say some events arn't run for both factions (as they're run for many factions) but the presence of NPCs leading the faction is really just to keep some base levels of problems at bay (such as the secrecy part).

Personally, at least as far as Harpers go, I love the secresy aspect and I love that it's an option for Good aligned folk. We've dozens of classes that are evil or evil/neutral only, but of the 'good aligned' ones really only two, as I recall (Harper and Paladin).

[Duchess Says]

There are two discussions going on here and they should be separated because they really don't have to overlap.

One, should Harpers and Zhents be application locked.

Two. should some of their unique class abilities be accessible to characters who don't want to be harpers and zhents.

People are shouting down question 2, which I think is a fair thing to ask, because of question 1. This happens all the time on these forums and it's why they get so maddening. Since it seems there's zero chance of harpers and zhents being unlocked maybe that part of the discussion could be dropped entirely.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Some stuff.

A bit off topic, but your interpretation of the Moonstars is a bit different than what I've personally read and others I have dmed with elsewhere saw them as. I've always taken them to be an offshoot that was more "aggressively good" then the traditional harpers, which is why they broke off to do their own thing. The harpers are slow and measured in their decisions, not wanting to over extend their efforts against evil out of fear of something going wrong and the balance completely shifting toward evil as a result. The Moonstars are like screw all that, smite in the name of good. The best harpers I have seen on the server actually felt more like moonstars to me then harpers. Does that mean I am reading it right and you are reading it wrong? Nope, I totally respect your lore knowledge more than most on arelith, and concede that I could be the one in the wrong here. I would just love to know where you got your perception from.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

There are two discussions going on here and they should be separated because they really don't have to overlap.

One, should Harpers and Zhents be application locked.

Two. should some of their unique class abilities be accessible to characters who don't want to be harpers and zhents.

People are shouting down question 2, which I think is a fair thing to ask, because of question 1. This happens all the time on these forums and it's why they get so maddening. Since it seems there's zero chance of harpers and zhents being unlocked maybe that part of the discussion could be dropped entirely.

Text is hard lol. But you are right, no one is saying Zhents and Harpers should be a free for all. Just that they get some perks that maybe should be opened up to non harpers/zhents. I don't necessarily agree with that point, since as Zavander laid out the bonuses mechanically are not all that much and it's just the qol stuff (no components!) that instead maybe should be removed from harpers and zhents before adding to the general player base as feats in my mind. The problem with this forum that you refer to as maddening is a result of people reading through something quickly and not thoroughly, formulating an opinion based on previous conversations had about the topic and their own thoughts on the subject, and proceeding to fly past any nuance in the conversation. Mind you this is a problem of the world in general, and not just this forum. I wish I had an easy solution, but considering I am someone that sees what the problem is and still do it myself from time to time should tell you how difficult it can be to not let previous conversations and thoughts seep into a new conversation about an old topic. The first step though is that we all do our best to try and understand the points being made and ask questions if we are not sure instead of making assumptions. The second step is not getting too mad at each other when inevitably we all fail at it from time to time.

[Scylon]

I mean, if you, I don't know... renamed the "class" to anything else and changed nothing else about it mechanically, the argument of "well harpers need to be X" totally go's away. I don't personally have a huge problem with a character being required to be in a faction for a class. But by the same flip of a coin I don't have an issue with said character leaving the faction and keeping their levels. They don't just go dumb and forget what they learned.

If anything I'd like to see more 3-5 level mini classes that are faction tied as long as the characters aren't just blown up if their character go's a different direction. Hell you could use the harper/zhent as a generic faction class that requires you to join a faction and be trained for example. Free it up, but keep it locked down at the same time which adds some interesting RP opportunities. Even if they are faking it to get the class, you can wiggle that into RP easy. Hells you could even make the tokens work per level. To your "master" need to train to each level with some sort of command to give a level token for the classes.

so for example Radiant could get access to paragon or something, or a group of dark mages could get access to Naug-adar. under different class names of course.

[Wings of Peace]

There are two discussions going on here and they should be separated because they really don't have to overlap.

One, should Harpers and Zhents be application locked.

Two. should some of their unique class abilities be accessible to characters who don't want to be harpers and zhents.

People are shouting down question 2, which I think is a fair thing to ask, because of question 1. This happens all the time on these forums and it's why they get so maddening. Since it seems there's zero chance of harpers and zhents being unlocked maybe that part of the discussion could be dropped entirely.

Text is hard lol. But you are right, no one is saying Zhents and Harpers should be a free for all. Just that they get some perks that maybe should be opened up to non harpers/zhents. I don't necessarily agree with that point, since as Zavander laid out the bonuses mechanically are not all that much and it's just the qol stuff (no components!) that instead maybe should be removed from harpers and zhents before adding to the general player base as feats in my mind. The problem with this forum that you refer to as maddening is a result of people reading through something quickly and not thoroughly, formulating an opinion based on previous conversations had about the topic and their own thoughts on the subject, and proceeding to fly past any nuance in the conversation. Mind you this is a problem of the world in general, and not just this forum. I wish I had an easy solution, but considering I am someone that sees what the problem is and still do it myself from time to time should tell you how difficult it can be to not let previous conversations and thoughts seep into a new conversation about an old topic. The first step though is that we all do our best to try and understand the points being made and ask questions if we are not sure instead of making assumptions. The second step is not getting too mad at each other when inevitably we all fail at it from time to time.

I do agree that it seems like there's multiple discussions happening here but I disagree with the premise that it's mostly QoL stuff. Harper/Zhent Mage/Priest both grant 1:1 caster level progression while also granting hide/ms as class skills. This makes them extremely strong options. And Harper Paragon/Zhent Enforcer both cater to strong builds in the meta as well such as Grenadier Rogue 25/HP(ZE) builds where it adds both a bonus feat and access to divine feats.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

1. The mechanics shouldn't be RP-locked. We did away with races/RPR on adjacent grounds. Principally, it doesn't hold up. A generic class should be allowed.

2. The PrCs are so bland when devoid of their narrative, however, that they pale to the mechanical ingenuity of new base classes. Even worth the trouble?

3. Red Ropes suggestion of making them a 3-level dip would be great.

4. Further, just give them vote-meddling and a pin and forget the PrC entirely.

[Watchful Glare]

The idea of them being granted a pin for the purpose of identification, and so anyone is a prospect for being recruited into the Harpers/into the Zhent is actually appealing

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki ... _Moonblade (a literal harper assassin)

Arilyn was an assassin (in reputation, not class allotment), but the term "Harper Assassin" that you're using here is actually used to refer to her Elfshadow when it was not under her control, from her moonblade, which was literally going around and assassinating other Harpers. (If you're interested, you can read more about it here: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Elfshadow )

More importantly, from this particular entry of lore, there's a noteworthy point.

"Arilyn was an agent of the Harpers but not an official member of the organization, and though she had a reputation as an assassin, she had never killed an innocent or unarmed person."

I'm not slamming the DM who ran the event for me (in truth it's been so long I don't remember which one it was, nor if they're even still on the team)- I was grateful that I was able to get such an effort made on my behalf, because I'm aware there are literal hundreds of players per DM. However, in my own personal example, the person we assassinated was not a raging tyrant, mercilessly gutting people and putting them to the sword. It wasn't a Zulkiir of Thay known for their wanton cruelty. It was a diplomat from Amn, a politician of a country the only Royal line of Arelith is at least nominally affiliated with/under, who showed up to a meeting room under the flag of diplomacy to do their job.

They were effectively helpless against I and this NPC. They bore no weapons, had no guards, and my character was never given information on what their crimes were, he was simply expected to go through with killing them, solely for membership into the Harpers - literally the same induction the assassin class (which Arilyn never takes) requires.

This is not the modus operandi of Harpers, and even the Moonstars (which I feel would be an appropriate direction to take with Arelith's Harpers, since they even have gifts from Khelben in their base) still mostly followed the Harper vision, and if you can find me a single instance of non-moonstar lore that shows membership of anyone with that disposition, I will drop the point and spend the next week's worth of my free time reading everything I can get my hands on around the instance.

As it was executed, my experience left me questioning whether or not these were really Harpers, or there was some ominous plot in the server background to reveal the entire cell was being led by impostors who actually worked for the Zhentarim.

Truthfully, I expected to be told at the end of the quest that it was all a test, and that I'd failed by not trying harder to save the diplomat. Instead, I got my pin.

The server is also set in a particular time when the "least moral" of the Harpers have been kicked out and are currently in a quasi-exiled, blacklisted faction known as the Moonstars who are like super unethical because Khelben read a fortune cookie and believes he is the chosen one in a prophecy.

Some Harpers are pacifists, others might be psycho chad barbarians who bust the skulls of jack booted government thugs in broad daylight because they can, and all of them are trying to work toward peace / freedom / safety. They're idealists but not naive - they think a world in which Myth Drannor can live again is possible, that one day, when enough people see that Men and Non-Human can hold hands, that they can live with nature and not against it. But they absolutely know you're going to have to kill some (objectively evil obstacles) to get there, with kindness or with swords. Both work.

I agree with most of what you've said here, however, this is where I feel you're leaning into the "Whatever it takes, a harper will do" tenet and ignoring the rest of them... which again, I would agree with wholeheartedly, if the Arelithian cell was a moonstar cell- but it does not touch upon this at all.

Speaking of objectively evil obstacles, Harpers are not meant to commit objectively evil acts. Certain conditionals of killing people are always objectively evil. Killing another humanoid who has done you no harm and is no threat to you, in a land where laws foster peace (remember the Harper tenet about the rule of law, which conveniently comes before the bit about doing whatever it takes.) From a traditional Harper standpoint, I would argue that it would've been more prudent to arrange for this diplomat to be kidnapped and kept from the meeting, then turned loose, or even captured and turned into authorities with hard evidence of their corruption and bribery to stand trial (setting an example to other diplomats of what is unacceptable).

Elsewise, without making it very clear the diplomat in question has their hands dirty with blood money and opposition that keeps conveniently disappearing, this entire event was more like taking the assassin class than becoming a member of the traditional Harpers. If this is the introduction, via DM, that Harpers are getting into the organization, these are not the Harpers we read about in Harper novels or source material, and continuing to paint them that way is going to create cognitive dissonance OOC for those who have read about them before coming here.

---

Anyway I think the classes are just unnecessarily bland, they have none of the soul or following that the actual tabletop PrCs have. While some might be overtuned and the others are just "okay", I think they require too much and rely way too much upon mechanics to really be healthy but its not something easily changed either.

Were I the one voice and the grand sceptre on the call I'd just pull everything and make "Zhentarim Agent" and "Harper Scout" as two separate but one size fits all things that acts like a dip for builds.

Something like - has access to all skills, gets all of the cool stuff by level 3 (ie, vote meddling), and doesn't really count against you too much so that we can have Monk 25/5 or 27/3s who are not gimped by it, or warlocks, or whatever.

I like your idea with regards to the dip class aspect, but this part of your premise is why even though this thread is on the Harpers being token locked, I feel the behavioral direction from Topside and the lore of the faction is such an important talking point here.

The soul of the Harpers is not in their mechanics, it's in their conceptualization, their philosophy, and in the naturally occurring turmoil taking such a path must overcome in a world like Toril. They have a dream of a utopia, and seek to usher in its coming over centuries' passing, while trying not to lose sight of the dream in their actions in order to reach their destination (which is why the moonstar faction is 'quasi-exiled', as you put it).

The Harper's creed is expressed as individual tenets, and it's useful... but taken piecemeal as it often is, it loses its context.

“
"Right, then, good Lady Shandril, I shall try to tell thee something of what it is to be a Harper.

"A Harper holds peaceful sharing of the lands above all other goals.
"By sharing, we mean all the races living in and under the land, where each prefers to live, trading together where desire and need stir them to, and respecting each other's holds and ways—without the daily bloodletting that all too often holds sway in the Realms today.
"True, we must fight, it seems often enough to keep our swords and our tempers both sharp enough. Yet, know ye; all of us fight when we must, or die. Moreover, ye only hear of blades drawn and death and spells hurled, and never know of the many, many times that a quiet word or a skillful deal has turned enemies aside from each other, forced a way clear where none was before, or distracted foes from the eager task of tearing each other's throats out. That is the true Harper way: subtle and quiet, behind the shouting. Trust and wisdom, and outfoxing others is what we deal in."
”
— Mirt the Moneylender explaining the Harper's purpose to Shandril Shessair

When you look at the creed as a whole, and take the above quote in place with it, I feel it slides many things into proper perspective, and is more of an argument that the cell operating on the island would make a better Moonstar cell than a Harper cell. The Harpers are concerned with their methods, not out of pride or naivete, but out of not becoming that which they seek to fight against.

I feel that such a distinction is seriously lacking on Arelith's take of Harpers, and I believe that, and not the classes, is what creates a 'soulless' perception of them.

On a more personal note, I feel it's also worth noting that no harper in the history of the organization has ever been ousted for revealing themselves to others in good faith- the harpers themselves gain influence and advantage throughout the realms because some of their membership is known, for their deeds to be sung about and bring hope throughout the land. On Arelith, spouses, families, and children have been threatened with assassination over this, multiple times, by both PC membership and NPC High Harpers, under multiple DM handlings.

Harpers do not reveal the identity of OTHER harpers- each Harper's membership is their own secret to keep, or not.

Again, all these things can be cool- but from my perspective, calling them Harpers is just flat out misleading. I mean all of this in the most respectful way possible, and I want for Harper goings-on on the server to make me go "ooooo, this is happening," rather than "Oh. This is happening." My experience is, unfortunately, the latter, 9/10 times.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Personally I think Harpers should lose the ability to vote everywhere. The "sane, good" choices usually promote the status quo and keep new people from having a chance leading places. I don't think Harpers should be able to form a voting block. This isn't to knock Harpers for voting, it makes perfect IC sense to vote for "stable" leaders with established communities. But it doesn't make for a good story.

The one thing the Harper classes offer is a way to make a caster spy character. I can see the attraction to it for that reason, being able to take hide/ms/disguise and get full caster levels. And I'm sure there are people who would take the class just for eschew spell components. But overall the classes are extremely boring. If people want a mage spy class it'd be better if it became a wizard path or something.

I like the idea of a general catch-all class for Harpers, but would ask that they get full caster level progression.

Another idea, is it possible to have a Harper pin enabled skills and feats to be enabled for classes on levelup? Like let's say you're a cleric or something, would it be possible to make it so receiving a Harper pin would let you take hide, move silently, bluff/perform, etc without taking a separate class? And maybe give a bonus language? I think that's the best bonus that Harpers get.

[Stop. Ninja Time]

Thank you everyone for the further discussion, I did read it all but can't really respond to everything without making response past that of the character limit, so picking and choosing! I do appreciate the continued level-headed discussion though, and everyone's opinions on it.

We have entire reaces locked behind specific rp. Take Drow, and the monster races - The only difference there is it's juded /in play/ rather than at character creation.

The same is true with classes beyond Harper too - in fact true of pretty much any class that has an alignment restriction. Again we tend to be quite gentle with this - but it remains true.

If we want to seperate the... 'faction' of Harpers/Zhents from the 'mechanics' of Harpers/Zhents then doesn't that lead to a rather odd situation? A lot of the mechanics around them are based around being secretive, espianagy, sneaky...

it's a little like saying 'Ok so there's Raident Heart - which accepts anyone at all that's Good aligned- and Paladins, which is just a mechanical class which can be any alignment you want.'

I mean ti's... an option? And I'm not entirely against it I suppose? But it seems a little... odd.

I look at it from the opposite point of view. You expect paladins to be a lawful good aligned class, but we don't force them to join specific factions. We don't force any class besides harper to be part of the factions (not even assassins -have- to be part of the guild). My opinion is that the harper classes are no more HARPER than say playing a Cleric, Rogue, Paladin etc is. So if we remove the names and make the harper faction the only thing that requires a token, and the classes get new names - voila, lots more RP choices.

For example, you could use the classes to make a Shadow Thief (Zhent operative), or a Cowled Wizard (Harper/Zhent Mage), or make your own mafia-like group in Cordor that isn't associated with the Zhents at all.

As an example of a character concept that may not want to join the harpers - you could play a warrior of Hoar (LN), with some of Hoar's blessings, and want to take Paragon in order to get hide/MS/bluff for sneaky investigative work while focusing the rest of your build into say fighter/divine champion because you want to be able to smite and fight. You've no spells of your own, you're just a semi-holy warrior/inquisitor. Yes, you could do this with rogue, but it's not very honourable to 'sneak attack', maybe you could do this with bard but if you don't sing? There are options instead, but Paragon can easily be the most flavourful.

I would argue that a class is -very- different from a race. When you are a drow, everyone knows it; same with Firbolg or vampire or whatever. No one can read your character sheet and say it says "Operative" and go "You are a harper!!!". We don't lock -most- races (outside of ones you want scarcity), so isn't that all the *more* reason to unlock the harper classes?

I'm not really sure I see the relevance of this when most of the criticism has been about the class balance and impact on server.

I believe that was in reply to mine and Aelryn Bloodmoon's posts. To be frank, we somewhat went on a tangent about the RP implications of the Harpers more so than the classes themselves.

I still think it intrinsically ties back to the original subject. These classes are well loaded with mechanical power and build opportunities. They're five, very compact, very feature rich levels that often only cost a class slot. They are very attractive to build with if you're trying to squeeze every iota of performance out of a build, and (here's where my admittedly highly subjective opinion comes in), they somewhat distort the supposed RP angle of the classes if they're being built for mechanical power primarily.

This ^
Really I just want to be able to take a few interesting classes without being tied to specific RP just because the class has a faction name in them. Just like I can choose where I take my paladin, or choose where I take my wizard or druid. They're flavourful classes that are interesting, but unless you build a specific character you're out of luck to have fun with them.

Personally, at least as far as Harpers go, I love the secresy aspect and I love that it's an option for Good aligned folk. We've dozens of classes that are evil or evil/neutral only, but of the 'good aligned' ones really only two, as I recall (Harper and Paladin).

I too, love the secrecy part. Just not on every character. Which is part of why I feel there is a major win-win all around for divorcing the classes from the factions:

1. The faction only has people applying to it that are interested in secret spy RP (you'd have no one joining for mechanical power if there was none to gain).
2. More RP options for those not interested in secret spy RP on a particular character.
3. The people being secret have an easier time by not having to hide their secret harper/zhent only abilities, like infinite songs or not knowing celestial but having turn undead.

I have to say I'm surprised by how many feel that the classes being tied to the faction is important, when no one loses anything by divorcing them while everyone gains more/better RP.

I mean, if you, I don't know... renamed the "class" to anything else and changed nothing else about it mechanically, the argument of "well harpers need to be X" totally go's away. I don't personally have a huge problem with a character being required to be in a faction for a class. But by the same flip of a coin I don't have an issue with said character leaving the faction and keeping their levels. They don't just go dumb and forget what they learned.

If anything I'd like to see more 3-5 level mini classes that are faction tied as long as the characters aren't just blown up if their character go's a different direction. Hell you could use the harper/zhent as a generic faction class that requires you to join a faction and be trained for example. Free it up, but keep it locked down at the same time which adds some interesting RP opportunities. Even if they are faking it to get the class, you can wiggle that into RP easy. Hells you could even make the tokens work per level. To your "master" need to train to each level with some sort of command to give a level token for the classes.

so for example Radiant could get access to paragon or something, or a group of dark mages could get access to Naug-adar. under different class names of course.

An interesting take on it, for sure. It'd free it up from being locked to a single class, and drive the RP in certain directions. Personally I'd still prefer to just have the classes divorced from any factions, so that you can take your RP where you want. It'd be unfortunate to have to be associated with the Radiant Heart just because you want to play a paragon (see my note on a Hoarian Paragon above); just as unfortunate as having to play a harper for the same reason.

I do agree that it seems like there's multiple discussions happening here but I disagree with the premise that it's mostly QoL stuff. Harper/Zhent Mage/Priest both grant 1:1 caster level progression while also granting hide/ms as class skills. This makes them extremely strong options. And Harper Paragon/Zhent Enforcer both cater to strong builds in the meta as well such as Grenadier Rogue 25/HP(ZE) builds where it adds both a bonus feat and access to divine feats.

That -is- a factor in my argument as well, yeah. The classes can be used to make very strong builds, and in many builds only add without really taking away from anything. I don't think it's good for the community to have faction/token locked classes be mechanically stronger than what everyone else can get.

It isn't my core point, but it is one of them, so I agree with you!

1. The mechanics shouldn't be RP-locked. We did away with races/RPR on adjacent grounds. Principally, it doesn't hold up. A generic class should be allowed.

2. The PrCs are so bland when devoid of their narrative, however, that they pale to the mechanical ingenuity of new base classes. Even worth the trouble?

3. Red Ropes suggestion of making them a 3-level dip would be great.

4. Further, just give them vote-meddling and a pin and forget the PrC entirely.

The idea of them being granted a pin for the purpose of identification, and so anyone is a prospect for being recruited into the Harpers/into the Zhent is actually appealing

I agree, it'd be very -very- cool if you could earn the pin in character/in game in order to join the harpers/zhents. It'd make the RP feel a lot more natural, especially as characters evolve. Imagine the interesting RP of a character learning about the harpers and discovering one and showing how skilled they are in order to earn their pin.

I'm not sure how I feel about it being a 3 level dip; I mean I want the RP options of additional classes/RP flavour, so I don't think a 3 level dip would satisfy since you could generally (for skills) only take that near max level; which sort of pushes for power leveling. I'd prefer at least 5 levels so you could take 4 preepic and 1 at level 29/30 if you were taking the class for the skills as much as the abilities.

I enjoyed reading this and I agree with many of your points on their philosophy. I also had that strange dissonance with my Harper where my expectations of harper behaviour didn't really match with the regular assassinations that occurred. That said, perhaps I'm missing it, but I don't really see how this pertains to the thread topic of locking/unlocking-and-renaming of Harper classes.

Personally I think Harpers should lose the ability to vote everywhere. The "sane, good" choices usually promote the status quo and keep new people from having a chance leading places. I don't think Harpers should be able to form a voting block. This isn't to knock Harpers for voting, it makes perfect IC sense to vote for "stable" leaders with established communities. But it doesn't make for a good story.

The one thing the Harper classes offer is a way to make a caster spy character. I can see the attraction to it for that reason, being able to take hide/ms/disguise and get full caster levels. And I'm sure there are people who would take the class just for eschew spell components. But overall the classes are extremely boring. If people want a mage spy class it'd be better if it became a wizard path or something.

I like the idea of a general catch-all class for Harpers, but would ask that they get full caster level progression.

Another idea, is it possible to have a Harper pin enabled skills and feats to be enabled for classes on levelup? Like let's say you're a cleric or something, would it be possible to make it so receiving a Harper pin would let you take hide, move silently, bluff/perform, etc without taking a separate class? And maybe give a bonus language? I think that's the best bonus that Harpers get.

I didn't think of that, and I agree with you - the harpers/zhent shouldn't be able to vote anywhere as they do detract from the story. While it's a cool flavour and it -is- fun as a harper to go in and manipulate elections, it is fun in a way that takes away from others by making things more stable.

And yes, making a caster spy character is one of the main perks of going the harper classes. I disagree that the classes are boring; as I personally find some of them quite interesting. I'd rather take paragon levels than fighter, for example; even if fighter is mechanically generally strong, the paragon is more interesting to me.

I think it does make sense to require certain requirements to be a harper, maybe you need decent perform or bluff, or lore or whatever; and force them to take dips in other classes. I think having the pin grant mechanical power is the wrong approach, as it again turns the faction towards being more powerful when it should be about just the RP.