Character awards & Writs

[toftdal]

Like imagine if Deep Imaskari wasn't just a significantly better human wizard at effectively no cost, or aasimar/tiefling/genasi weren't able to double-stat their gifts, or fey/minotaur/ogre/imps didn't have a built in double stat along with a lot of other very useful features. Maybe they wouldn't be as popular.

One of the most popular award races, tiefling, are basically gift-locked versions of their base race now as they are ECL+3. I'd argue that they are mechanically about the same as the base race but with fewer combinations possible (and same goes for aasimar) - 'double-dipping' for attributes is only really possible for genasi.

I believe that what they hook into, is the ability to play something 'other-worldly' which for some players (myself, included) is alluring (and the duality of being basically two races in one). The complexity of playing something that is shunned by the majority and either living up to or against the stereotypes that this infers is compelling.

Your point stands for fey/minotaur/ogre/imps etc. I, for one, find those really hard to roleplay outside of the stereotypes. (also, no dress-up is a hard no from me)

[Distant Relation]

I love my minotaur, but the lack of dressup is real pain.

The monster RP concept is tricky because you have to walk a fine line between 'RP the cliche' and 'get reported for breaking the setting and atmosphere'. I can confirm however that for my part I truly wanted a minotaur character for the RP opportunity it represents. I don't particularly mind if there's other minotaurs around (in fact that could be quite cool, lil' minotaur herd going about), and the mechanical power or lack thereof isn't a consideration (my build in particular would be *way* better as a horc, which is free).

.. and at the time I made my mino, I couldn't even get a minor gift with it. And I later found out I didn't even get a free skill point like every other race other than Firbolg. Poor minos.

[Kuma]

.. and at the time I made my mino, I couldn't even get a minor gift with it.

One minor should be the absolute minimum anyone gets, imo. They're always flavour or at least not a "big deal".

[Distant Relation]

That's actually resolved now, new minos do get a minor gift. Which yea, I agree, it would be nice. I would have immediately taken gift of crafting as it totally fits my plan for the character RP-wise.

[WanderingPoet]

Like imagine if Deep Imaskari wasn't just a significantly better human wizard at effectively no cost, or aasimar/tiefling/genasi weren't able to double-stat their gifts, or fey/minotaur/ogre/imps didn't have a built in double stat along with a lot of other very useful features. Maybe they wouldn't be as popular.

One of the most popular award races, tiefling, are basically gift-locked versions of their base race now as they are ECL+3. I'd argue that they are mechanically about the same as the base race but with fewer combinations possible (and same goes for aasimar) - 'double-dipping' for attributes is only really possible for genasi.

I believe that what they hook into, is the ability to play something 'other-worldly' which for some players (myself, included) is alluring (and the duality of being basically two races in one). The complexity of playing something that is shunned by the majority and either living up to or against the stereotypes that this infers is compelling.

Your point stands for fey/minotaur/ogre/imps etc. I, for one, find those really hard to roleplay outside of the stereotypes. (also, no dress-up is a hard no from me)

I stand corrected, I'd forgotten that aasimar/tiefling had been bumped to +3.

I'm not saying that there aren't great reasons to want to play the other races; I've seen some really interesting tieflings and aasimar, avariel etc.

But I wonder if the ones that are mechanically more powerful -were not-, if that wouldn't heavily reduce the number of them that we see. That still includes fey/minotaur/ogre/imps/avariel/yuan-ti/imaskari etc. If that wouldn't reduce it to just the people that are interested in the lore/story reasons to play the races.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I stand corrected, I'd forgotten that aasimar/tiefling had been bumped to +3.

I'm not saying that there aren't great reasons to want to play the other races; I've seen some really interesting tieflings and aasimar, avariel etc.

But I wonder if the ones that are mechanically more powerful -were not-, if that wouldn't heavily reduce the number of them that we see. That still includes fey/minotaur/ogre/imps/avariel/yuan-ti/imaskari etc. If that wouldn't reduce it to just the people that are interested in the lore/story reasons to play the races.

In this vein of thought, it would be pretty cool if you had a story idea centered around some sort of racial concept but you didn't have an award and could still play the race without mechanical adjustments using any one of the base races stat-wise.

Actually, here's an expansion on that thought - any base race should be playable with any of the other base race's stats. It would encourage racial diversity based on character concept without restricting build choices (which restricts playstyle, which may kill the motivation to play certain races entirely for many players).

If for whatever reason this inspires a frenzy of 'you can't let people pick default stats for free,' make it require a minor award or something, but I don't see why it would be the end of the world if there was a orphaned bookworm-smart wizard wild-elf raised in a city with sun elves (and sun elf stats instead of wild-elf ones) or a runt of a dwarven thief who had halfling stats instead of dwarf stats, or a half-orc that's not quite as hardy as others with human stats.

[WanderingPoet]

I stand corrected, I'd forgotten that aasimar/tiefling had been bumped to +3.

I'm not saying that there aren't great reasons to want to play the other races; I've seen some really interesting tieflings and aasimar, avariel etc.

But I wonder if the ones that are mechanically more powerful -were not-, if that wouldn't heavily reduce the number of them that we see. That still includes fey/minotaur/ogre/imps/avariel/yuan-ti/imaskari etc. If that wouldn't reduce it to just the people that are interested in the lore/story reasons to play the races.

In this vein of thought, it would be pretty cool if you had a story idea centered around some sort of racial concept but you didn't have an award and could still play the race without mechanical adjustments using any one of the base races stat-wise.

Actually, here's an expansion on that thought - any base race should be playable with any of the other base race's stats. It would encourage racial diversity based on character concept without restricting build choices (which restricts playstyle, which may kill the motivation to play certain races entirely for many players).

If for whatever reason this inspires a frenzy of 'you can't let people pick default stats for free,' make it require a minor award or something, but I don't see why it would be the end of the world if there was a orphaned bookworm-smart wizard wild-elf raised in a city with sun elves (and sun elf stats instead of wild-elf ones) or a runt of a dwarven thief who had halfling stats instead of dwarf stats, or a half-orc that's not quite as hardy as others with human stats.

I think that'd be a really cool idea.

It's always interesting from an alliance perspective to see "Oh dwarves are hardy, elves are the arcane archers and wizards" etc, but that doesn't really work well mechanically (the Lye even 7 years ago not withstanding, that was super cool). It'd be far more interesting seeing diversity in races, and especially racial settlements, because you weren't locked into particular abilities.

At that point though, could go the route of Tasha's Cauldron in 5e and let people entirely pick their own stats. Sure, people will use it to minmax, but I'd rather people minmax and play an interesting character, than minmax because that specific race is better. Imagine how many more dwarven wizards we would see if they were mechanically as good as elves/humans, or how much easier it'd be to find a non-human sorcerer if they had charisma modifiers, or halfling lancers because they could get a half decent strength score to use those lances on their ponies.

[MissEvelyn]

Please, please, please let's not ruin 3.5 Forgotten Realms by introducing Lineage from 5e's Tasha's supplement.

Arelith already has gifts that can do what you want. We really don't need to make all races identical blank templates.

Racial physiques and stereotypes being represented in ability scores is one of D&Ds biggest strengths and it's what makes playing unusual combinations interesting.

[xf1313]

I play a wild elf who is more disciplined, she came from mixed family and such XD.

It is quite lovely to have people overcome a little racial penalties (thank u gift) to get a concept working, they’ll be 2 points less than optimism build but that is like...nothing really. Now this discussion had me want to look at fun rp builds...oh pls I need the ideas.

At the current state I dare not make fun build in fear that I cannot survive dungeons.

The major races, I can see the reason behind why they are made rare. However if people work with collaborated rp to establish a yuan-ti village, an calimshan embassy etc, snake people and genasi may just become less rare?

[Ithalan]

Please, please, please let's not ruin 3.5 Forgotten Realms by introducing Lineage from 5e's Tasha's supplement.

Arelith already has gifts that can do what you want. We really don't need to make all races identical blank templates.

Racial physiques and stereotypes being represented in ability scores is one of D&Ds biggest strengths and it's what makes playing unusual combinations interesting.

I don't get this argument. Why can't unusual race/class combinations be interesting to RP unless they are mechanically penalised?

Most races have plenty of racial features besides their stat adjustments, a lot of which have a much more visible impact on how the characters are RP'ed.

[Ork]

Back when Orogs were +4 CHA, the vast majority were blackguards. Their stat-block heavily influenced their class/play. In the same way, you don't see many Elven barbarians or half-orc paladins or shield dwarf sorcerers and that's okay. Enabling Tasha's stat swap would mean half-orcs are no longer disintivized to be paladins - not a wholly bad thing at the individual level, but the whole macro level of what races play what classes will mean you'll have no predictable tropes that make these races authentic to the setting.

[Eyeliner]

Being able to override common race stat adjustment whether "Tasha's swap" or just using the human base isn't something everyone should be able to do all the time... But I'd spend a greater or maybe even major award to be able to do that on rare occasion. I think we need more awards that benefit standard races in general and that could be a good one that would make a unique but not overpowered character.

[Xerah]

That actually seems like a pretty good idea that everyone could find some use for.

Take a normal reward, and remove stat adjustments and ECL. Probably need to check the racials for each one after that are equaliviant to 33 skill points + feat to make sure though.

[The GrumpyCat]

That actually seems like a pretty good idea that everyone could find some use for.

Take a normal reward, and remove stat adjustments and ECL. Probably need to check the racials for each one after that are equaliviant to 33 skill points + feat to make sure though.

This is... quite an interesting idea I suppose.

And I do think that we need to be very careful and thoughtful with how award = mechanical power.

That said I'm not a fan of just removing all racial bonuses as a whole (as 5th ed seems to be moving towards).

There's a few reasons around this. Some because I'm not really fond of the meta that's growing which seems to say 'All none-human races are basically humans but with different shaped ears' or what not. An Dwarf isn't a short human (Unless it's a person with dwarfism I suppose) - they're a completely seperate species. As differnt to a human as a Tiger is to a Cheetah, or a Housecat, or a Lion. As such it's reasonable to assume they'll be certain physiological differences.

Another reason I'm not so fond of the idea is... about specialness.

Now- I may be wrong here, but I think there's at least some truth to say that a good majority of players (not all but a good majority) want to 'stand out' in some way.
For some this may be getting a reputation at being awsome in combat/pvp and able to hold their own or continue their adjenda.
Or it could be being the 'best' at something - maybe having an amazing score in sailing, maybe roleplaying a fantastic cook, maybe something else. A thing where people can say 'Oh that Bob, he's an amazing 'xyz' he's the guy you want to talk to.'
Or of course it can be leading a faction, events, ect - there's a big draw to wanting your character to be memerable, to stand out in one way or another.
And of course another way of doing this is to be /wierd/. To be 'unique' in just what you're doing. A Dwarven Bard will stand out. As would say, a Elven Blackguard, or a halforc wizard. The idea of playing something against type. But if there's no real reason for it to be against type, - then it stops being against type, you see?
Want to play a something a bit wierd and wacky? Well you can, but there is a reason why it's not common.

Yet also, I can't think that a -1 deficit in a useful ability score will mean that a character is completely, utterly and comprehensivly unplayable or even unlevelable. Sure they won't be the most optemised thing in the universe, maybe not absolutly top-tier at PvP or completing all the content ever- but they'll still be perfectly useable and useful come level 30.

So yeah, I personally like the stat bonuses and negatives on different races. I suppose I'm not entirely against having an award to remove them in certain specific situations but... I wouldn't want to see them gone full stop.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

{Respectful Snip}

Yet also, I can't think that a -1 deficit in a useful ability score will mean that a character is completely, utterly and comprehensivly unplayable or even unlevelable. Sure they won't be the most optemised thing in the universe, maybe not absolutly top-tier at PvP or completing all the content ever- but they'll still be perfectly useable and useful come level 30.

So yeah, I personally like the stat bonuses and negatives on different races. I suppose I'm not entirely against having an award to remove them in certain specific situations but... I wouldn't want to see them gone full stop.

So, I get where you're coming from, but I want to take a second to show why it's much deeper than a -1 deficit, and also point out a few unconsidered side-effects of the situation.

That -1 is more than a -1 because it's a racial modifier that occurs during character creation. And while I'm glad I don't see five million h-orc paladins running around, the same -2 racial modifier to CHA that makes them extremely sub-optimal paladins also renders them sub-optimal warlocks and hexblades and blackguards. Proof follows.

For a human, elf, gnome, or halfling, 16 charisma costs 10 of your 30 starting stat points. For a Half-orc, that same 16 costs 16 of your starting stat points, and to recoup any of that incredibly costly deficit you're locked into advancing your racial bonuses by default. I'm not saying that encouraging racial tropes is bad, but it seems awful to me that say, a h-orc shaman/blackguard or lock/blackguard of gruumsh starts six points in the hole for advancing a workable charisma score.

Admittedly, I find this to mostly be a problem with the charisma bracket of classes, because there are no base vanilla races that have bonus charisma in the first place. I feel similarly about intelligence-based classes, but at least sun-elves are an option here, and they aren't alignment locked. Wisdom is also left out but champion levels at epic provide hyper-growth to the stat in exchange for WF: Melee, so it's not necessarily suffering the same predicament.

Offering the option to swap (standard vanilla) racial bonuses as some lower level of an award seems a decent enough compromise for those who want to diverge from their racial trope without taking an arrow to the knee at creation.

[The GrumpyCat]

Snip

But my point isn't that the penalties do not render a character suboptimal. You're correct there.
My point is that not every character NEEDs to be optimal.
You can take a suboptiamal character and still do the majority of Arelith content.
It is, after all, a roleplay setting. I don't really play it so that I can wtf pwn people in pvp whilst getting constant sweet l00t in solo dungeon runs and chatting to my friends over Voice Discord. There's other games I enjoy for that (well, maybe not the pvp...) I play it, personally, to tell stories with character concepts that intreage me. And if I get to do a little of the rest that's nice, but it's really not a priority.
And y'know, there's nothing wrong even with being the sort of person who enjoyes pvp/solo dungeon grinding/grabbint teh best l00t ect. Whatever floats your boat man. But I feel that moving Arelith towards that entirely is something of a mistake?
There's LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of games where I can do that. Most games in fact cater to the joy of having awsome power builds and getting the best achievements ect. But games like Arelith? Much rarer.

IDK though. Maybe I'm just wierd. But that's how I feel about it.

[MissEvelyn]

Snip

But my point isn't that the penalties do not render a character suboptimal. You're correct there.
My point is that not every character NEEDs to be optimal.
You can take a suboptiamal character and still do the majority of Arelith content.
It is, after all, a roleplay setting. I don't really play it so that I can wtf pwn people in pvp whilst getting constant sweet l00t in solo dungeon runs and chatting to my friends over Voice Discord. There's other games I enjoy for that (well, maybe not the pvp...) I play it, personally, to tell stories with character concepts that intreage me. And if I get to do a little of the rest that's nice, but it's really not a priority.
And y'know, there's nothing wrong even with being the sort of person who enjoyes pvp/solo dungeon grinding/grabbint teh best l00t ect. Whatever floats your boat man. But I feel that moving Arelith towards that entirely is something of a mistake?
There's LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of games where I can do that. Most games in fact cater to the joy of having awsome power builds and getting the best achievements ect. But games like Arelith? Much rarer.

IDK though. Maybe I'm just wierd. But that's how I feel about it.

And, if I may respectfully add, you can still have fun while playing a "suboptimal" build. A good build isn't what makes a character memorable. Having a higher ability score than most others won't make you stand out. It'll help if you are roleplaying someone extremely (insert ability score adjective here), but I think we can all agree that it's someone ability to corporate in storytelling that makes for a memorable character, not how quickly they can solo an ancient red dragon.

I'd even argue that suboptimal characters are more memorable and enjoyable to roleplay with in general, because they have actual weaknesses. They have to work around their weaknesses, and it makes their story so much more grounded and relatable.

[The GrumpyCat]

Snip

-snip

And, if I may respectfully add, you can still have fun while playing a "suboptimal" build. A good build isn't what makes a character memorable. Having a higher ability score than most others won't make you stand out. It'll help if you are roleplaying someone extremely (insert ability score adjective here), but I think we can all agree that it's someone ability to corporate in storytelling that makes for a memorable character, not how quickly they can solo an ancient red dragon.

I'd even argue that suboptimal characters are more memorable and enjoyable to roleplay with in general, because they have actual weaknesses. They have to work around their weaknesses, and it makes their story so much more grounded and relatable.

Exactly!

And I want to just add-
I'm not saying that playing an optimal build is bad.
Or that people who play optimal builds are bad.
Or enjoying optimal builds is bad.
It can be a lot of fun to have an amazing build that can solo deep wells or whatever. I've had some really good times with powerful builds for sure!
I just think it needs stressing that it's by no means /neccesary/ for absolutly everyone who plays Arelith to have one. Far from it.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

-snip

And, if I may respectfully add, you can still have fun while playing a "suboptimal" build. A good build isn't what makes a character memorable. Having a higher ability score than most others won't make you stand out. It'll help if you are roleplaying someone extremely (insert ability score adjective here), but I think we can all agree that it's someone ability to corporate in storytelling that makes for a memorable character, not how quickly they can solo an ancient red dragon.

I'd even argue that suboptimal characters are more memorable and enjoyable to roleplay with in general, because they have actual weaknesses. They have to work around their weaknesses, and it makes their story so much more grounded and relatable.

Exactly!

And I want to just add-
I'm not saying that playing an optimal build is bad.
Or that people who play optimal builds are bad.
Or enjoying optimal builds is bad.
It can be a lot of fun to have an amazing build that can solo deep wells or whatever. I've had some really good times with powerful builds for sure!
I just think it needs stressing that it's by no means /neccesary/ for absolutly everyone who plays Arelith to have one. Far from it.

I suppose my argument is that -1 is suboptimal, but -1 to a primary stat modifier and -6 starting stat points (20% of them!) is sadomasochism, but that's just my opinion.

[Kriegos]

I just think it needs stressing that it's by no means /neccesary/ for absolutly everyone who plays Arelith to have one. Far from it.

This. Exactly this.

I get the perspective that a -1 is a meaningful difference. It is a meaningful, noticeable difference in a d20 system. But it’s by no means critical.

It can make a difference, but in most cases it simply won’t affect the outcome in a meaningful way. In most situations you either have a pretty good chance to hit/avoid things, or you do not. You have a pretty good DC for the encounter, or you do not.

These razor thin margins of success or failure often just do not come into play, and it’s not catastrophic when they do.

Ah, but Kriegos, I hear you say, when it’s taking a penalty instead of a bonus, it’s actually TWO points difference on the rolls! Maybe three in some cases!

Yep.

Incidentally, I just browsed through a bunch of different ‘vetted’ martial builds on the wiki, and the final AB of them ranged from 44 to 57 after buffs. I know there are higher and lower. Just that range of builds, all considered strong and workable, has a spread of 13 AB at a glance.

These are our usable, powerful builds handed down by Kenji Almighty™, High Optimizer of the Church of Viability (!) and his acolytes, and their range on the essential attack bonus is huge. A few points really doesn’t matter. It does not make a character unplayable, so can we please stop pretending it does?

Tldr: Play what you want on any end of the character creation spectrum. It’s fine.

Edit: form, spelling, grammar

[Kenji]

I suppose my argument is that -1 is suboptimal, but -1 to a primary stat modifier and -6 starting stat points (20% of them!) is sadomasochism, but that's just my opinion.

In the grand calculus of NWN mechanics, these sacrifices mean more to flavor than their suboptimality.

Player skills always outweigh all other variables first, and then character access to resources comes second, then builds come third.