Familiar Update Feedback

[ElevenOne]

I despise this change with my whole being. We are incentivizing people in having their "pets" out 24/7 with the inherent benefits these familiars grant.

Any chance the familiar bonus is given always, even when the familiar is not out and nearby? Similar to having the familiar small enough to keep in a pocket or flying around giving you information.

It might be on the table to give casters 1/3 of their total bonus (in PnP, casters get +3 to a skill).
The bonus is very much balanced around the idea that you have to have the familiar out - that it is conditional rather than a permanent effect - otherwise it would be just a free ESF for all the classes that get the familiar, which is not something we want.

Glad to hear is on the table. I agree +10 is VERY generous bonus as a freebie / non-epic feat and the low level requirement to keep it permanent, but hopefully a lower/mid point can be considered.

Thanks for the change!

[silverpheonix]

I can tell you my rationale for pushing for it -
And that is simply that the pixie was too good.
You'd have to shoot yourself in the foot if you wanted to use a pseudodragon, because the option between a funny talking lizard that is only a cosmetic accessory, or a literal pocket rogue? You'd pick the pixie every time unless you wanted to make a statement.

Can the pixie at least have like, a few ranks in OL/DT for people who don't want to have a dedicated alternate set of gear just to open a box? I think it's really weird that the pixie can whisper secrets of DT to you, without actually itself knowing how to disable any trap at all.

[chris a gogo]

Make knock work on locked doors again.
Make detect traps disarm them again.

No unfair advantage to magic users as everyone can now use scrolls.

Familiars picked for role play rather than mechanics.

All problems resolved.

[Morto]

I would like to voice of displeasure of pixies no longer being "Pocket Rogue"

I feel like players, mainly rogues players take offense though this as if they're in a union and familiars are taking their jobs.

I've always held a opposite stance that view, that rather than rogue types trying to monopolize the treasure cracking industry, this familiars give an option for caster classes to offer a similar access to the world. (I'm pretty sure Loremaster and/or bards recently also had an ability to open chests that was removed which I hold similar values on.)

I feel like a lot of Arelith could benefit from the opportunity of high level chests to be opened without a lockpick present. There is one dungeon against a giant, I think it's the Stone Gauntlet, where the boss drops a key to gain access to the dungeons treasure room. I love this design for that. If the chests were tied to the same key it would be excellent and thematic way to get the treasure which is perfectly accessible to martials. It still provides rogues the opportunity to pickpocket the key or pick open the treasure room without fighting. The key happens to weigh 5.0 lbs (giants right), so it's cumbersome to try and keep after the dungeon for repeat use.

They key game may have extra interactions in the case of dragons and intelligent high level bosses. These bosses flee instead of fighting to the death. Providing the chance of an unready party to miss the key if they are not able to stun or slay the boss outright. Yet the benefit of a safeguard by having a lockpick present.

If Arelith prefers to have more limited population of players have access to unlocking chest, I would suggest they adapt the world.

That said, I do really like the design of a skill Bonus being conferred by the choice of familiar

[RedGiant]

Agreed.

I've respec'ed several character after the change simply so they can participate in dungeon loot.

This amounts to a 2-3 skill tax on any character who wants to open box. Even with Arelith's more generous skill point distributions, this is too much.

Moreover, despite the skill bump and gearing, I still run into regular problems with the cross-classed skills and 'success never being possible.'

I think we need to somehow democratize loot. End game content should not be gated by: box.

I really don't care how we do it. Give us old familiars back.
-or- Make disarm trap spell/scroll/wand/item actually work again.
Whatever.
But please democratize loot.

Thank you.

[Security_Blanket]

The whole point of a locked door is that you can't easily open it, not without pulling a lever, finding a key or having enough skill. If you don't have enough skill, then either find ways to bring it up or accept that it's beyond your skill. Crossclass the skill you need to open doors so badly, you can get by just find with just a Knock scroll, you miss out on plenty of loot but it's really not a big deal. Calling for a return to the old pixie is like saying "disable all traps and unlock all doors." That Pixie was too much.

[RedGiant]

Let's review.

Yes, the pixie opened most boxes and most runic chests.

The pixie did NOT open guildhouses/quarters, many deep investment module 'secrets,' and some high-level dungeon content/shortcuts/loot.

So, pretty much it was perfect.

Democratize loot.

Thank you.

[Security_Blanket]

It was far from perfect, it was practically an exploit that was never addressed, but thankfully now it has. What is the point of locked doors in dungeons if everyone can open it? Spend the skill points bro or look at all that tasty loot beyond the locked door and wonder what you missed out on, it'll probably just be ammo or a bulky tower shield anyways.

[Naghast]

That's multiple massive exaggerrations packed into one sentence.
1: not everyone. Only arcane casting classes, and not even all of them, have a familiar.
2: an "unaddressed exploit" is a wild exaggerration. It's like saying that rogues getting 10+int skillpoints is an exploit. It's a class feature, not an exploit. Besides not everyone has skillpoints for two extra skills potentially. And you know that just as well as i do.
3: the funny thing is, people usually have to kill mobs to get to dungeon loot, sometimes including a boss. From more recent experience, i was part of a group that did beholders dungeon in ud. The one where you constantly lose all of your buffs, and a boss is a hyperpowered double-phylactery timestopping beholder. And the phylacteries had a respawn timer.

The chest at the end had a ground trap around it, a chest trap on it, and a lock, and the chest itself (runic) was unbreakable. If i remember correctly, it was the only chest present there.

Side note:

1 point of ol, 8 base dex, so dex mod final of +5

Gear baseline 22, +2 from cloak, +1 from gloves, for 25

Add those for 31 total

Take 20 for being able to open locks of dc 51.

Tl;dr:
You gotta pay the inventory tax.

[LordofThunder]

I have personally enjoyed the changes to familiars and support the "no-questions asked full rogue abilities familiar on demand" for certain classes deletion. If you chose to play arcane, are you playing for the RP or for a doubledown wiz/rogue for free?

This pixie ability is a base-game nwn singleplayer idea and not meant for multiplayer servers.

Hire a henchman or a mercenary rogue-player. Any class or player can do that.

[Security_Blanket]

That's multiple massive exaggerrations packed into one sentence.
1: not everyone. Only arcane casting classes, and not even all of them, have a familiar.
2: an "unaddressed exploit" is a wild exaggerration. It's like saying that rogues getting 10+int skillpoints is an exploit. It's a class feature, not an exploit. Besides not everyone has skillpoints for two extra skills potentially. And you know that just as well as i do.
3: the funny thing is, people usually have to kill mobs to get to dungeon loot, sometimes including a boss. From more recent experience, i was part of a group that did beholders dungeon in ud. The one where you constantly lose all of your buffs, and a boss is a hyperpowered double-phylactery timestopping beholder. And the phylacteries had a respawn timer.

The chest at the end had a ground trap around it, a chest trap on it, and a lock, and the chest itself (runic) was unbreakable. If i remember correctly, it was the only chest present there.

Side note:

1 point of ol, 8 base dex, so dex mod final of +5

Gear baseline 22, +2 from cloak, +1 from gloves, for 25

Add those for 31 total

Take 20 for being able to open locks of dc 51.

Tl;dr:
You gotta pay the inventory tax.

Options exist, you not only can cross-class but you can gear and even have access to thieves tools that you can store on a keychain, mitigating the "inventory tax". Maybe you can't spare room for two skills on your build, can you spare one for Leadership to hire a henchmen that can? I think the real problem here is that pixie has created a certain level of comfort for the players that were enjoying it and now they're feeling the pain that everyone else has been enduring the whole time and they don't like it. You're not suppose to be good at EVERYTHING.

Since the change I'm seeing people roleplay their familiars and so few of them are using the pixie familiar now and that makes me really happy.

[Naghast]

Side note nr. 2:
Lockpicks aren't free (the better ones are rsther expensive), they're consumed upon use, and they don't get to +25 like gear does.

I wouldn't say that they mitigate the gear tax. Rather, they can be added on top if a chest dc exceeds what you can pick with gear.

Henchmen kinda have another issue of being essentially... One, if you hire a hench, no one else can, usually.
Unless we get infini-hireable lockpick henchmen, then yea that'd be a less skilltax'y option i guess.

[RedGiant]

I find it odd that the anti-familiar camp is pro-henchman.

I.e., let's have just one familiar for the entire server.

All to open box.

This is the real problem.

[Sincra]

I find it odd that the anti-familiar camp is pro-henchman.

I.e., let's have just one familiar for the entire server.

All to open box.

This is the real problem.

One of them requires a skill investment and careful management in a party, the other scales by a class level that has been opened up to many classes now and tends to hide in the corner of a map until needed.

The disparity isn't that hard to see why one is fine and the other is not for opening locks etc.

[Naghast]

Can't you associate tool a hench to make them hide in a corner of a map, and then -fetch them for what you need them to...?

I mean a fair argument would be that a familiar can just be summoned on the spot. Because that's how i usually handled familiar summoning for chests.

...also it's interesting to see that familiars being opened to many classes now is an argument that's used here. it is true, but still, feels odd to me.

[AskRyze]

tends to hide in the corner of a map until needed.

So does the kobold rogue who only logs on when you need to get the box open, to be fair.

Edit: In a desire to come off as less tongue in cheek, I will elaborate. I've done a reasonable number of runic runs since the change and it's an oddly convenient circumstance where people just so happen to have a 'rogue buddy' who is rarely seen anywhere other than right when the run begins (assuming people don't have the right numbers cross-classed) who hangs far enough back to not get immediately bodied by the content, opens the chest, and then leaves ne'er to be seen again shortly after the run is completed.

Instead of pocket rogues, we now have '[faction]'s dedicated [possibly alt] rogue' if you don't have a dedicated rogue already. It is the same dynamic. Box gets opened, oops blueleaf, and the world moves on.

[MissEvelyn]

You're not suppose to be good at EVERYTHING.

While I would agree with you, Arelith's game design seems to disagree. Let's take a quick look:

• Everyone gets access to Rogue mastery levels of skills. Invest a single skill point in Open Lock and in Disable Traps, and with gear swapping you can be a bigger and meaner rogue than a rogue, with just a dip!

• Everyone has access to both divine and arcane spell scrolls, with enough lore. Martials are laughing with glee.

• Gear swapping.

• Skill rank points stacking for a later dip.

• Mordenkainen's Disjunction for everyone, literally, through an item. This makes everyone a powerful dispeller. Martials are laughing harder.

• With UMD, otherworldly spellbooks and all wands are perfectly mastered by non-Casters.

• Spellswords can enjoy all the benefits of a full mage caster and a full warrior. Spellswords, almost by themselves, can literally be good at everything. And with a dip in rogue or something else, these martials are laughing even harder.

• I almost forgot martial Loremaster. Sorry, Astral!

This list is very far from exhaustive.

So, you see, it's almost as though we're meant to be good* at almost everything on here. You have to deliberately cripple your character build (which is fun and interesting to play!) to not be good at most things. Multiclass and you're literally good at everything, unless you're deliberately not taking a skill - and now we're back to crippling the build on purpose.

* Casters are not included, obviously. They suck a little bit at everything, and are good at nothing unique.

[chris a gogo]

Re: Familiar Update Feedback
Unread post by Sincra » 15 Nov 2024 14:35

RedGiant wrote: ↑15 Nov 2024 13:26
I find it odd that the anti-familiar camp is pro-henchman.

I.e., let's have just one familiar for the entire server.

All to open box.

This is the real problem.

One of them requires a skill investment and careful management in a party, the other scales by a class level that has been opened up to many classes now and tends to hide in the corner of a map until needed.

The disparity isn't that hard to see why one is fine and the other is not for opening locks etc.

So which henchman is it that can open runic chests? this should be ooc information so I grab it each login.

Then i can leave it in a corner kill everything and have it open all the loot, don't have to worry about the page of gear swapping, no issue with losing bonus spells each time I have to open a box, don't have to worry about a 3 skill cross classed tax when i can just invest in one "leadership" and have a pocket epic rogue.
Maybe make like 20 copies on each server, that should cover most uses and you won't be without it until a reset if it dies.

[-XXX-]

Fire mephit boosts Open Lock
Pixie boosts Disable Trap
^ it's all on the wiki

Skill investment & some gear swapping is still required to open runic chests.

[Iceborn]

I've been listening to the feedback for a bit, divisive as it is - partly, as always, because I'm the kind of person that is not certain about anything and I always invite - sometimes woefully - the shadow of doubt to reel back any design decision I may take.

In this instance, I believe I have kept my ear to the ground for long enough to state with full conviction that the familiar change is here to stay, and it won't get reverted. Bar Iron bursting through the wall Kool-aid man style to kick me in the face, but that can happen with any change.

Wizards/Sorcerers - and any class that further received the familiar - should never have had a pocket rogue.
Yes, the change is inconvenient, and yes, OL/DT main allure is opening chests, a benefit that for many may seem secondary. Regardless, as it has been overly stated, there are many, many ways to deal with locks and traps, which come in the form of preparation and investment. This, for me, is the ideal state of these skills and their relation with familiars.

I have no plans to update Knock and Find Trap to make them stronger, as messing with anything related with OL/DT will impact directly quarterbreaking mechanics, and as you are surely aware, QBing can have a great impact in the game.

It's mentioned above that "you shouldn't be good at everything", and that "Arelith is not good at enforcing this", paraphrasing. Both statements are true, and if it was up to me, we would see systems that further reward the investment of the characters and penalize gear swapping and over-reliance on consumables. At the very least, this update attempts to move the needle a little more in that direction, as many other updates of mine have attempted in the past, and I hope to continue to do in the future.
Of course, Arelith is massive, and I don't plan to actively go out of my way to retroactively update every class and every system to represent this...
.. but given the opportunity, I will gladly take it.

[Naghast]

I have no plans to update Knock and Find Trap to make them stronger, as messing with anything related with OL/DT will impact directly quarterbreaking mechanics, and as you are surely aware, QBing can have a great impact in the game.

There are ways to make things not work on quarter doors though.
Like the skill bonus from familiars.
That bonus does not apply to quarterbreaking if i remember correctly.

[Ruzuke]

It's mentioned above that "you shouldn't be good at everything", and that "Arelith is not good at enforcing this", paraphrasing. Both statements are true...

And yet this only encourages and helps melees take the loremaster dip to become great at everything. They even gain the familiars as well. While wizards and sorcerers the classes who originally began with familiars ended up losing anything and everything unique about their class to every other class and are not great at anything.

[Peacewhisper]

It's mentioned above that "you shouldn't be good at everything", and that "Arelith is not good at enforcing this", paraphrasing. Both statements are true...

And yet this only encourages and helps melees take the loremaster dip to become great at everything. They even gain the familiars as well. While wizards and sorcerers the classes who originally began with familiars ended up losing anything and everything unique about their class to every other class and are not great at anything.

Sadly this is 100% spot on. I am playing a Barbarian now and even after equipping multiple pieces of gear that give me -3 lore I can still cast just about any spell that a wizard of equal level would be able to from scrolls. Even without dipping lore master I'll easily be able to cast any spell I need with very little investment. On a character with 8 int, and 8 wisdom, mind you. The only things unique to casters these days are a handful of epic spells, and I guess being able to infinicast stuff like cantrips or acid arrow that anyone with a certain helmet will be immune to. Used to the greater and epic spell focus cookies made casters feel truly unique and worth playing, but now any mundane can dip lore master and do those things and get a free point of AB and AC on top of it.

[Iceborn]

I have no plans to update Knock and Find Trap to make them stronger, as messing with anything related with OL/DT will impact directly quarterbreaking mechanics, and as you are surely aware, QBing can have a great impact in the game.

There are ways to make things not work on quarter doors though.
Like the skill bonus from familiars.
That bonus does not apply to quarterbreaking if i remember correctly.

Yes, it can, but it has to be implemented as individual exceptions.
individuals exceptions are a bad design practice and it's something that we want to avoid.

It's mentioned above that "you shouldn't be good at everything", and that "Arelith is not good at enforcing this", paraphrasing. Both statements are true...

And yet this only encourages and helps melees take the loremaster dip to become great at everything. They even gain the familiars as well. While wizards and sorcerers the classes who originally began with familiars ended up losing anything and everything unique about their class to every other class and are not great at anything.

Hardly.
Loremasters have to spend a secret to get the familiar, which is quite expensive, and they must still pair with a caster class to get the full benefit.
The classes that get the familiar do not "end up losing anything and everything unique"; the uniqueness of casters is meant to be in their spellbooks and their actual unique distinctive features, like the wizard's spell schook specialization. Familiars were not, and are not meant to be part of that uniqueness.

We know that LMs are overperforming and casters are underperforming in the current environment, and we are still deciding how to handle it in the future - stopping every other update or comparing it to the current situation is hardly helpful to the general development of the game.

[chris a gogo]

I'm playing devils advocate as i put OL, DT, search on all my gear anyway so I don't lose spells when opening chests but i do give up saves, concentration and discpline to do it.

Losing Uniqueness.
So far the team has given the wizard/sorcerer "spell books" to divine classes via domains, level 9 spells, where is the counter play I want my wizard throwing implosion and destruction as a trade, but that's probably taking away from the cleric class.

Arcane scroll use well everyone has that now and loremasters are better at it than wizards and sorcerers.

You made spell swords and gave them level 9 spells at level 8 and more hp than the wizard.
Arcane flux, was made for spellswords to make them better casters and works on there attacks so they get far more procs from it due to 4 attacks a round compared to the wizards 2, plus we had to complain about it until it was given to wizards.

Epic spells again loremaster have them too, without having to invest 21 levels and 3 feats into a 1d4 HD class to get them.

Base game only wizards and sorcerers got familiars, now they are everywhere, even weapon masters can have one not that it's worth it anymore of course, so I guess the change will stop melee builds summoning a pixie to open it's locks, if that is the aim it has been achieved, of course just removing them from loremaster would of achieved the same result.

Not that they had to as they don't lose weapons because they had to switch out gear to open the boxes, mages lose castings when switching gear.

So the wizard and sorcerer still have terrible HD and AB that is unique to them, please please give that to all the other classes too!

fin.