Player Count Conclusions

[Ork]

but just these preferences wouldn't see such a large gap between classes, and for sure not when it is consistently better classes at the top and worse at the bottom.

There are countless things that describe the data better than meta. CoT is 1.4% and it's a very powerful class. What better describes the data is player preference. Leaping to wild conclusions about meta is probably the most disingenuous assumption anyone can take with this almost useless set of data.

*insidious was way too strong a word

[Kythana]

This post is the most telling for me - I can't tell if this person is serious or if this is a troll post. The attitude that a class needs to be looked at and nerfed because it's too popular, whether or not it's mechanically powerful, isn't the approach I think should be taken with an rp server. There are a plethora of reasons why someone would choose the class spread that they do, but at the end of the day a person chooses the classes they want to effectively represent what they think fits their character and rp best.

yep.

its a pretty narrow mindset to think that something popular = too strong and needs a nerf.

while its sadly lost to discord image hosting, Kalo did a pretty interesting chart about half a year ago about the statistics of exact builds

so you would see how many fighter/wm/lms there are, how many rogue/fighters, ect

the latest statistics arent showing exact build breakdowns, so its not even giving useful information about the viability here. lets see the 25/5 cleric, the warlock/hemo lms, and whatever else it gets sprinkled into before drawing conclusions here

[ltlukoziuz]

while its sadly lost to discord image hosting, Kalo did a pretty interesting chart about half a year ago about the statistics of exact builds

It was Spyre back then, actually, with help of Sincra - https://i.imgur.com/EhR7QXI.png

And while images are lost because they weren't hosted on Arelith's discord server (I searched), Sincra's still here. If they had time, maybe they coupd dig out the scripts they did that breakdown in past and repeat it?

[Kenji]

I feel like it’s really arguing in bad faith to construct something which is the opposite of what I’ve said and then call them extremes.

I think this is mocking and bad faith of a dev to speak to a member of the playerbase like this.

The thing about human behavior and social interactions is that it is very often projecting of one's perspective. It is only in mocking and in bad faith if one poses it so. The post was there to serve a purpose beyond the subjective opinions of individuals. Without hearing my tone or my facial expression, I can assure you that there is not a single malicious intent on my end there. I don't know who you are or what your agenda is in misconstruing a conflict out of this and painting a picture of bad faith where there is none.

Moving on.

Here's the first set of quotes:

LM has become too popular - it probably should be looked at regardless of whether it's mechanically powerful or not.

I think its naive to say that classes being mechanically good has no impact on the numbers we see in these counts, you consistently see classes that aren't very good currently underrepresented. This is what people refer to as the 'meta'. If a class or build is good you will see higher numbers of it.

This is not to say that some flavours of characters aren't simply more popular than others. This can also be true, a lot of people really just want to be that fighter that is one with their weapon, that is fine, but just these preferences wouldn't see such a large gap between classes, and for sure not when it is consistently better classes at the top and worse at the bottom.

Meta is a thing and a real reflection of in-game balance.

Player numbers represent balance. It's adequate to treat this game as if there's a 'meta' because it is a Conflict-based RP game. There are elements of Player vs Environment, but things have to be 99% balance all of the time. We can see that the devs are not happy to release stuff with very little consideration of balance (i.e. Monk rework). Player numbers are more likely to represent people playing what they think will attain them the power to dictate RP narratives.

Here's the second set of quotes:

its a pretty narrow mindset to think that something popular = too strong and needs a nerf.

While there is a demographic of players who will gravitate toward the strongest classes, the ideas that a class is overpowered because too many people play it or that a class is underpowered because too few people play it is strictly false.

Players only pick fighter because of mechanics? Players only pick rogue because of mechanics? This is probably the most jaded, pessimistic and incorrect take I've seen in awhile.

Player numbers don't represent balance. It's absurd to treat this game as if there's a 'meta' because it is NOT an arena game. There are elements of player vs player, but things don't have to be 100% balance all of the time. We can see that the devs are already happy to release stuff with very little consideration of balance (i.e. Harbinger's package). Player numbers are more likely to represent people playing what they're enjoying.

Are you all able to tell the reason why I grouped them together in separate groups?

Now, humanity has a powerful tool that turns the subjective into the objective. It is called statistics^†. We can use statistics to show that the objective truth lies somewhere between the two groups.

They are from what I can extrapolate:

1. Players create and play their characters based on concepts and roleplay first before mechanics
2. Players create and play their characters based on mechanical prowess and ability to dictate narratives before roleplay and concepts

The above quotes of two camps already serve as the first set of evidence. Chances are, those who claim whichever do make their characters based on either concept first or mechanics first. (And there is nothing wrong with both, truly)

Here's the kicker-

Guess how I make mine first? Aesthetics - if I can find the right vanilla portrait with right voice set and character model, then I will proceed with either the concept or mechanics, whichever I feel like approaching first. Therefore, I fall into neither of those camps. And I am fairly certain that I am, in fact, not the only one to do this!

From that logic, everyone is wrong in their absolute statements. Now, how one decides to take that fact and turn it into personal insult or being made a mockery out of is how one wants to make of it.

All I can say is my intentions are neither.

I will be moving on to Loremasters when I have both further statistical evidence as well as time, but I already have formulated a response in mind (to be discussed among the team, first). I do feel the need to address hurt feelings of those who come to this discussion before it devolves into something that had happened to Monk Overhaul.

^†Statistics can be gathered from various sources: the numbers of shared opinions, polls, and eventually histograms of actual builds and specific spreads.

I swear sometimes I can’t tell if a Kenji post is there to troll the community or to help it when half of the time you’re either writing with heavy sarcasm or belittling the people who don’t share your opinions.

I'm not gonna lie, I take your opinion and your posts with more weight than others due to some of my own perceived arbitrary metrics. I normally don't bother responding to, for example, an account with less than a few months in their creation date if all I get from it is veiled vitriol. (not saying your posts are, but as an example of what I choose to respond to)

If this, to you, is belittling people by saying that they (sometimes myself, along with bias recognition) are incorrect in their (mine own) statements, then there is much misunderstanding there.

I do consider you (among some others) a valuable asset and member of the community that I feel the need to address some things. It may not be always what one wants to or needs to hear, but rest assured I share the same passions that are Arelith and Roleplay as you do (I assume, you ARE passionate about Arelith and Roleplay, right?)

[Dreams]

Ok, well I'll take it all more seriously when you don't have a signature that makes fun of the people who are coming out poorly by the decisions you make. Maybe you're right and I'm misunderstanding the tone of your posts sometimes. It could also be that players who are more often online are getting a better picture of how things are than the people who look at numbers but aren't really as involved in the game anymore.

[Kenji]

Ok, well I'll take it all more seriously when you don't have a signature that makes fun of the people who are coming out poorly by the decisions you make. Maybe you're right and I'm misunderstanding the tone of your posts sometimes. It could also be that players who are more often online are getting a better picture of how things are than the people who look at numbers but aren't really as involved in the game anymore.

It's a reference to Raul Julia's M. Bison in the live action Street Fighter movie.

And moreso I was compared to the narcissistic and delusional Bison in this post during the turbulent times of when I overhauled Clerics:

• But why? Why do they still call me nerf-happy? And mad? All I want to do is to create the perfect PvP Class Balance! Not for power, not for evil, but for good.

• The Cleric Rework will be the first of many. They shall fly from my keyboard, and sweep away every variant, every suboptimal build, every unique character, until the entire server is in the loving grip of the Balance Perfecta.

• And then balance will reign, and the server, and all the players, will bow to me and use cookie-cutter builds in loving gratitude.

It was hilarious and I've embraced it ever since.

Definitely watch the movie and get where the quote comes from though.

[Dreams]

Yeah, I've seen the movie, I get the reference. I realise there's things I probably can't change so I'm going to bow out of this. Good luck everyone.

[Kythana]

The above quotes of two camps already serve as the first set of evidence. Chances are, those who claim whichever do make their characters based on either concept first or mechanics first. (And there is nothing wrong with both, truly)

Please explain what exactly you think the second group of quotes is trying to argue. What point are you saying that we're making?

[The Vandals of Rome]

Now, humanity has a powerful tool that turns the subjective into the objective. It is called statistics^†. We can use statistics to show that the objective truth lies somewhere between the two groups.

any social scientist will tell you that stastics offer nothing close to objective truth

shoot any scientist telling you their findings are "objective truth" will be laughed out of the room

what stastics tell you are specific observations that might support a conclusion

but there are always limitations

what are used to contextualise and inform findings?

qualitative data

which you wont find on a forum without egregious limitation

its faux intellectual posturing to try to use player counts and forum posts as objective or even appropriate for analysis

so you might ask, how can we make decisions about our dress up gnome simulator if there's no objective proofs?

maybe having some sincere conversation with mutuality as a community?

that would be my stance

i think the moment you start pretending there's data driven proof for your position you basically kill an argument

i also got the reference in your signature but it being a reference doesn't make it come across to me as any less sneering and dismissive of our community

[MissEvelyn]

Ok, well I'll take it all more seriously when you don't have a signature that makes fun of the people who are coming out poorly by the decisions you make. Maybe you're right and I'm misunderstanding the tone of your posts sometimes. It could also be that players who are more often online are getting a better picture of how things are than the people who look at numbers but aren't really as involved in the game anymore.

It's a reference to Raul Julia's M. Bison in the live action Street Fighter movie.

And moreso I was compared to the narcissistic and delusional Bison in this post during the turbulent times of when I overhauled Clerics:

• But why? Why do they still call me nerf-happy? And mad? All I want to do is to create the perfect PvP Class Balance! Not for power, not for evil, but for good.

• The Cleric Rework will be the first of many. They shall fly from my keyboard, and sweep away every variant, every suboptimal build, every unique character, until the entire server is in the loving grip of the Balance Perfecta.

• And then balance will reign, and the server, and all the players, will bow to me and use cookie-cutter builds in loving gratitude.

It was hilarious and I've embraced it ever since.

Definitely watch the movie and get where the quote comes from though.

I myself thought this was funny.

But more importantly, after those feelings were expressed on the Cleric changes, Kenji and the team continued to tweak and tinker with Cleric, adjusting and adding new paths. And today you can play so many different Cleric playstyles because of those changes. I think I've played 3 different Clerics since that forum post.

A dev may appear to be trolling in the forums, but their work and contribution really speaks for itself.

Also, we have polls for data collection, and I'm sure devs have even more ways to survey server statistics.

[Kriegos]

It was hilarious and I've embraced it ever since.

And I love you for it.

[Security_Blanket]

A dev may appear to be trolling in the forums, but their work and contribution really speaks for itself.

+1

[Rubricae]

I myself thought this was funny.

But more importantly, after those feelings were expressed on the Cleric changes, Kenji and the team continued to tweak and tinker with Cleric, adjusting and adding new paths. And today you can play so many different Cleric playstyles because of those changes. I think I've played 3 different Clerics since that forum post.

A dev may appear to be trolling in the forums, but their work and contribution really speaks for itself.

Also, we have polls for data collection, and I'm sure devs have even more ways to survey server statistics.

there is something to be said about one's conduct and how they interact with the community, which should never be discounted.
dreams is not alone in their thought process.

[Ork]

the statistics published are the furthest thing from objective (if there even can be such a thing) evidence of meta, balance or power. for starters, it doesn't share anything about the complete class combo and it doesn't disclose ab, ac, hp, saves or any other metric we judge a build on.

at best, the data is purely which is the most popular. there's nothing else to be gleamed without more info.

[Marsi]

so you might ask, how can we make decisions about our dress up gnome simulator if there's no objective proofs?

maybe having some sincere conversation with mutuality as a community?

The most important element in any roleplaying community is a development culture resembling a room of quants at a high frequency trading firm. Planning a build on Arelith should be no different to a commodity trader looking at advanced weather forecasting models to predict chickpea futures.

[A MAN DRUNK ON POWER]

If you zoom in close and look at Weapon Master, you'll see that one person with over 15 levels in it, commited to being the only Weapon Grandmaster on Arelith
This character should, when retiring, become a Weapon Master trainer NPC

Ymmstrid's old build was WM 16 haha, now she's a more standardized build tho, but for a while the concept with her was "how high can I make my knockdown DC?"

[JubJub]

Dirgesinger is not as popular as I would have expected with how popular bard is.

And Arelith bless the last two dragon PCs.

As someone who plays a dirge that doesn't use undead, I can say without undead the dirge is pretty limited. Undead seem a huge part of the class. It just seems like there are better class options if you want to use undead. So, IMO not a lot of reasons to take dirge for a bard.

[Rubricae]

the statistics published are the furthest thing from objective (if there even can be such a thing) evidence of meta, balance or power. for starters, it doesn't share anything about the complete class combo and it doesn't disclose ab, ac, hp, saves or any other metric we judge a build on.

at best, the data is purely which is the most popular. there's nothing else to be gleamed without more info.

a little louder for the people in the back

loremaster is not the enemy

holy god above

[helitron]

I have already mentioned after a previous player count that the current way of how these class statistics are displayed is not conclusive. Best to show all class combos and their counts (as we had it before). This will show how many time LM is used for RP favor and how many times for mechanical reasons.

And if it’s the WM/LM combo that people are worried about, then it may be better to look at that combination than at LM alone.
I think devs should stop nerving classes because they give some benefits in certain combos, but rather try to nerf certain class combinations instead.

[Kythana]

I have already mentioned after a previous player count that the current way of how these class statistics are displayed is not conclusive. Best to show all class combos and their counts (as we had it before). This will show how many time LM is used for RP favor and how many times for mechanical reasons.

And if it’s the WM/LM combo that people are worried about, then it may be better to look at that combination than at LM alone.
I think devs should stop nerving classes because they give some benefits in certain combos, but rather try to nerf certain class combinations instead.

100% this.

On its own, LM is a popular class because it appeals to nearly every type of player, and is a lightweight dip with pretty simple requirements.

LM has something for you if you:

• Sail
• Craft
• Gather
• Want ESF goodies
• Like Rituals
• Want to save money
• Host language lessons
• Want to learn languages

That is in addition to just taking it for a mechanical boost. When you have a class that appeals to such a broad range of playstyles, is it really any surprise why it's popular?

I find that LM dips are particularly good for solo/small group play, but when you start getting bigger groups, LM starts to become a bit less relevant of a dip. And I think that's a perfectly fine trade off.

If there's anything that truly should be changed about LM, it's non-casters getting free access to the ESF goodies. Particularly -scry and -ward, since these have pretty powerful usages.

[Kuma]

so you might ask, how can we make decisions about our dress up gnome simulator if there's no objective proofs?

maybe having some sincere conversation with mutuality as a community?

The most important element in any roleplaying community is a development culture resembling a room of quants at a high frequency trading firm. Planning a build on Arelith should be no different to a commodity trader looking at advanced weather forecasting models to predict chickpea futures.

real

[Naghast]

Wasn't wizard/loremaster a very, very popular wizard build at one point?

Makes you think about whether popularity = mechanical power.

(Hint: popularity can hint at it but it's not a decisive proof. There are likely other factors that could make something popular)

[Kenji]

The long-awaited statistics are here - special thanks to Kalopsia, the overlord of the Elves and SQL:

The below is the top 20 combination of level 30 characters with Loremaster levels

Note that due to taking the top 20 combo, 2s and 1s (and likely some 3s) are excluded from this

• The "Melee" category mainly includes full BAB classes such as Fighter, Swashbuckler, and Barbarian with no spellcasting capabilities at all
• The "Caster" category includes Wizard, Cleric, Warlock, and Spellsword
• The "Other" category here includes mainly 3/4 BAB classes (Rogue, Monk, Bard) and Half-Caster (Bard, Paladin, Ranger)

[Paint]

Everyone said what I wanted to say already so I'm going to fold my arms and sulk, but I am definitely on team, "What is popular is not necessarily a metric of what is the best."

This includes the entire player pool, and a lot of those players aren't optimizing builds for PVP or PVE; a lot of them are just looking to play something that they connect with and picking up builds that fit that or stapling something together themselves. Nothing wrong with that.

Liberator is good. I think it could use a few more cookies, but it's good. My aversion to using it, personally, is that every concept I've come up with for a Liberator character is one that'd be absolutely miserable to roleplay. I feel like that might be the source of aversion for a lot of others. To me, Liberator fantasy is punching everyone who sucks in the face regardless of the consequences and that's real difficult to roll on Arelith without some serious pvp and roleplay chops.

[-XXX-]

IMO it's mainly because the Loremaster's Knowledge bonus is probably too big - it lends access to WoF scrolls without gear concessions:

33 - Lore ranks
05 - SF: Lore (class prerequisite)
03 - hard INT (class prerequisite)
08 - Loremaster's Knowledge (at 4 LM levels)

---

49

This puts us a +1 Lore enchantment (or Fox potion) away from 50 lore threshold needed to use WoF scrolls.
Had Loremaster's Knowledge bonus been equal to LM level instead of 2x LM level, this would at least require the character to use a single Ring of Insight.